Sony BURANO Camera Teased

[Phil Holland]

According to CVP, there’s no line skipping or pixel binning in any of the modes.

Then I'm additionally curious if it's a data rate write limitation on what that specific mode isn't at the source resolution. That's beyond the question of a scaled X-OCN output from that resolution, which is likely fine for a camera like this.

 

[rand thompson]

Here's a Sony Burano 'Short", I don't know why people waste their time posting these short clips but...., that was shot with the Cooke SP3. And they used one of those presets that crushes the fuck out of the Blacks/Shadows.

 

[rand thompson]

BHPhotoVideo now taking Pre-Orders
Sony BURANO 8K Digital Motion Picture Camera MPC-2610 B&H Photo (bhphotovideo.com)

 

[rand thompson]

Jon and Phil,

Nino Leitner of CineD talks to the Sony Rep in the "RECORDING FULL FRAME" chapter of the video, which starts at the 6:22 mark , about the Cropping in of the sensor.

TIMETABLE

0:00 - Jump to chapters
0:53 - Introduction
1:13 - First impressions
2:10 - Comparison with FX6/FX9 and VENICE 2
2:56 - Weight
3:35 - Sensor
4:13 - Data rate & recording
4:49 - X-OCN LT codec
6:05 - Metadata workflow
6:22 - Recording full frame
7:29 - Higher frame rates
9:05 - Anamorphic
10:07 - XAVC H codec
10:49 - CF Express Type B
11:49 - Combining ND filters with IBS
14:07 - What’s hidden behind the PL mount?
14:43 - Autofocus
15:53 - Viewfinder
17:29 - Connectivity & audio
20:21 - Remote app
20:45 - What’s in the box?
22:32 - Price & availability

 

[Phil Holland]

Jon and Phil,

Nino Leitner of CineD talks to the Sony Rep in the "RECORDING FULL FRAME" chapter of the video, which starts at the 6:22 mark , about the Cropping in of the sensor.

That's a delightfully confusing way to discuss it. I do have via Sony that it crops to approximately 8K and scales or "whatever" to 6K.

This is what that looks like:
https://phfx.com/tools/formatCompar...modelB=Burano&formatB=6Kos+16:9&focalLengths=

I should say it's interesting that we are going back to 16:9 here as the hero format with 17:9 being a vertical extraction.

For clarity, in the RED universe we trim the edges off of 17:9 for 16:9 which is more of the film-like workflow. In 2023 it's more just a different mindset thing.

I think another probable firmware request for the Burano would be a 8.6K 2.37:1 or 2.39:1 mode, which should also produce higher frame rates.

 

[rand thompson]

Yeah the Sony rep sure was evasive about how they were achieving their crops from the sensor.

Here is the info posted in the FDTimes Sony Burano PDF.

Sony Burano 8.6K Imager Modes

Sony Burano 8.6K Crops

Sony Venice V2 8.6K Imager Modes

Sony Venice V2 8.6K Crops

 

[rand thompson]

Here's a link to what they call their "BURANO Firmware Roadmap"

BURANO Firmware Roadmap - Sony Pro

 

[James Sielaff]

Sony listening to redusers more than RED.

 

[Phil Holland]

Sony listening to redusers more than RED.

Curious what you mean here specifically.

You already have all the anamorphic modes on DSMC3 bodies, remote control, wireless control, etc.

Only thing here I see that's a pending request is the existence of the an EVF. Which I'm hoping for soon.

 

[James Sielaff]

Curious what you mean here specifically.

You already have all the anamorphic modes on DSMC3 bodies, remote control, wireless control, etc.

Only thing here I see that's a pending request is the existence of the an EVF. Which I'm hoping for soon.

With the 4:3 addition, the Burano becomes almost everything a reduser might ask for except body size. Though, it is bigger, the IBIS means it doesn't require additional rigging or extreme sensor cropping to get smooth handheld walking shots, so the weight and size is somewhat mitigated.

Things redusers have asked for:
- dual slot media
- IBIS
- Internal ND
- sensor that doesn't have issues to start
- really good autofocus
- dual iso bases
- solo op operator side controls (most red owners are solo op, and touch screen or app, not always best)
- good audio with dedicated xlr
- 50wh draw (or less? the feature they didn't know they needed?)
- downscale full sensor read out in "raw"
- 2 or 3 second boot time


While also having the sharper 8K, though that doesn't matter to all red users.


The Burano appeals to alot of what majority of Red owners do: multimedia and gigging

It certainly doesn't diminish the apeal of Raptor.

We'd like to think of Red is only used on movies, but in real life encounters, most Red owners are guys that shoot for hire, and will take on anything that pays.



And if Red is only a cinema camera company, that is great. But a lot of cinematographers were asking for a 2K camera with good DR, and then when that didn't happen, they asked for 4K with good DR, and when THAT didn't happen, well, we didn't know that cinema cameras were all about resolution?

Critiques aside, the Raptor is a good camera, and sort of ironic that Red's reputation feels at its lowest while it's cameras (and perhaps sales) are at their best.

Anyway, i don't want to critique red design so much as express the growing divergence between the user base and Red design goals and company choices. I don't think it has to be an extreme view. Red's are great, and for first time buyers, they've never been more affordable.

EDIT: had to make a correction, the Burano does 120fps in both full frame and s35 at 4K.
- s35 120fps XOCN 4K
- FF35 120fps XAVC 4K

 

[James Sielaff]

...and yes the EVF, but perhaps I shouldn't get started on that. haha. Very optimistic about their next release, and yeah, hoping they do well.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Curious what you mean here specifically.

You already have all the anamorphic modes on DSMC3 bodies, remote control, wireless control, etc.

Only thing here I see that's a pending request is the existence of the an EVF. Which I'm hoping for soon.

which people been asking for years..Literally years!

 

[Phil Holland]

Things redusers have asked for:
- dual slot media
- IBIS
- Internal ND
- sensor that doesn't have issues to start
- really good autofocus
- dual iso bases
- solo op operator side controls (most red owners are solo op, and touch screen or app, not always best)
- good audio with dedicated xlr
- 50wh draw (or less? the feature they didn't know they needed?)
- downscale full sensor read out in "raw"
- 4:3

Interesting. I'd like to personally go through these with my perspective and takes.
- Dual Slot Media. Unnecessary for a motion picture camera from my perspective, but I moderately understand some use cases here. It would also add power needs and heat into the mix, which I think worsens the potential of what a system can do.
- IBIS Sony has already confirmed at the launch event that "rattle" can occur, which for me is still a no go, though I'm certain very useful for a lot of people. But when that problem arises, you are in a bad spot. I would say for most of this cameras use cases, it's probably a non-issue.
- Internal ND. I can get behind this one in this case as of 2023. Though I'll underline, if it breaks in camera it's a full stoppage of work.
- This one is unclear outside of potential seam related chatter. I have been working with V-Raptor 8K VV since the beginning and it is not present in my work.
- Autofocus, yep. RED can improve here for those who need/want this. Canon and Sony are way ahead development-wise here.
- Dual ISO isn't the most interesting thing you can do with a sensor honestly, but this sensor design it has it's place. You get more DR now for instance, which I think is more important to most.
- RED makes the touch screen for this, but it is an interesting trend coming back into play which Arri is dabbling with now. It used to be the other way around. Mixed thoughts here.
- Dedicated XLR I can get behind. I personally have always wanted a bolt on module with pogos here. But Raptor and Komodo-X have much better audio than before and you can get high quality XLR in.
- Power draw is going to be highly related to what the camera can do. Raptor 8K VV for instance floats in between 60-75 watts and you can crank up to 120fps at full sensor. Komodo-X is far less of a draw.
- RED is actual RAW, they won't do any sort of scaling in that regard. RED doesn't do binning or line skipping either. For ProRes they scale down in camera properly.
- RED has 4:3 for anamorphic, though I do moderately prefer how DSMC2 worked in terms of formats and enabling/disabling anamorphic mode.


If you're curious, here's my current wants:
- EVF - I shoot in conditions where that is so very desired.
- I do miss having the two programmable buttons operator side from DSMC2. Would be nice. Next camera maybe. We lost a pogo monitor output too, but maybe for good reasons to make things smaller.
- I want two levels of "magnification". This will require some thinking as it's more important for say 8K to have a punch in to 4K and then 100%.
- I have some additional thoughts on frame guides, but I think I'm alone on this front and I have solved the problem for my specific needs.
- Next camera, I'd like to have 4X XLR inputs potentially.
- RED should make a 5" screen.
- RMI could use a design that doesn't rely on that plastic sleave. I'm cool with the cable and the 15mm mount however.
- Komodo-X needs an Arca Plate that is compatible with the Raptor baseplate system IMO.
- Next camera, 32-bit internal audio please on all channels.

Down the line as media is about to advance further, I wouldn't mind uncompressed, perhaps even higher bit depth, etc. That might open the door for full raster encode at all resolutions, but I'm probably nuts for wanting that. I also wouldn't mind a higher resolution sensor. Potentially a larger format one. Though I am very, very happy with the VV format size. I prefer it over 36mm wide formats really. Though it's only 4.96mm wider, it's noticeable in very specific ways. Unsure why a lot of FF35 sensors end up smaller than 36x24, but it's the pixel math when it comes down to it. Also weird how middle format landed on 44x33 and not 48x36, but that's way off topic.

 

[Phil Holland]

which people been asking for years..Literally years!

heh. 2 years nearly to the day. I'll say it would probably take about a year-ish to make it right and I suspect that's what's going on. Jarred has teased it recently, so we do have confirmation to a degree that stuff is being worked on.

I'm a little more grounded on DSMC3 being an entirely new ecosystem. Not saying it's like RED making the RED One or DSMC2 bodies all over again, but it's moderately the case. And we had to wait for an EVF in both cases there as well. At this point I'm more curious what it will cost and what it will do however. I personally just want it relatively small, low power, and with a decent flexible mounting solution.

I'm unsure about how or if the two major industry strikes have come into play on product releases this year, but I certainly know for other manufacturers it's played a huge role on some releases and even personel related things.

 

[rand thompson]

I like this "AUTO ND" function.

 

[James Sielaff]

Was anyone else mislead about the frame rates on the Burano? I just heard it can do 120fps both FF35 and S35 at 4K. Will be interesting to see how that FF35 120fps works out, as it is either downscaled or line skipped etc, which can be good enough or horrible.

But the 120fps issue was a big knock on the camera, so the fact that they have a work around for it, sort of softens the blow.

S35 4K crop at 120fps may have some look around space, as well. and it is XOCN, but the FF35 is Xavc only as of now.

I previously said that the Burano did not have 120fps, which was only partially true.

 

[rand thompson]

James,

I was never into the "Super Slo-Mo" thing. I remember even the RED MONSTRO back in the day only having a 60FPS top frame Rate at Full Format 8K and you had to go to a 4K crop to get Full Format 120FPS. I know that it did that at 60FPS with a "Full Frame- Vista Vision" sensor but I think you get what I mean. So 60FPS was fine as a top Frame Rate for me for slow motion. The 6K "Over Scan" on the Sony Burano crop area is really not that much of a sacrifice to go from Full Frame 8.6K 16:9 or 17:9 at 30FPS to 6K 16:9 or 17:9 60FPS. However Red has spoiled Red camera owners with 120FPS at Full Format 8K.

PHFX.COM | tools - formatCompare - RED Monstro 8K VV 8K FF & Sony Burano 6Kos 17:9 - Crop Factor Datasheet




PHFX.COM | tools - formatCompare - Sony Burano 8.6K 16:9 & Sony Burano 6Kos 16:9 - Crop Factor Datasheet




PHFX.COM | tools - formatCompare - Sony Burano 8.6K 16:9 & Sony Burano 6Kos 17:9 - Crop Factor Datasheet

 

[James Sielaff]

Hi Rand, totally agree. that's one of the Raptors unique selling points. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[rand thompson]

I'm posting CVP's "OVER" and "UNDER" test of the 5 Cameras below. I only included the +4"Over" results ( because according to CVP's tests it is where all the cameras hit the wall in the "Highlights") and -6 "Under" which is their maximum for Under Exposure.


How They Test

+4 "Over"

Sony Burano

Sony Venice 2

Sony FX9

Sony FX6

Red V-Raptor

-6 "Under"


Sony Burano-800 Native ISO

Sony Burano-3200 Native ISO

Sony Venice 2

Sony FX9

Sony FX6

Red V-Raptor

 

[David Peterson]

As I mentioned. Sales dropped drastically on the FX9 when the FX6 came out. Sales since have been extremely poor and now there is a "better camera" in some ways, despite being more expensive.

I agree it's two different pricing tiers. I'm more or less explaining what retailers are dealing with on that front.

Personally and professionally I have thoughts as to why this has transpired.

How come? Because the FX6 is good enough for the low/medium end? And they even prefer the smaller size of the FX6 over the bigger FX9

While the higher end will just go for the VENICE instead.

Thus once the FX6 came out, the FX9 got trapped in an almost "no man's land" which a rather thin number of buyers left for it.

Hope the same thing does not happen to Burano, that it is in a "no man's land" between FX6 and VENICE.

To David Peterson's point. Sony isn't concerned about F5 or F55 prices at all. Legacy cameras they no longer ship aren't turning profits for them. And yep, that is very much the target market here.

Oh for sure, I wasn't implying that Sony cares! I'm sure Sony doesn't care about sales of the F35 either, which I also mentioned in my post.