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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Something Special... ( REDCINE-X )

Judder from another mudder

Judder from another mudder

Jeff Kilgroe said:
(snip) I saw the judder from the Blu-Ray player and I had been discussing back and forth with Oppo over it and SEIKI as well and both of them seemed confused. Then I discovered that the judder from the OPPO at 4K went away on the SEIKI when playing 30fps material. (snip)
Click to expand...

Jeff, were you able to have the Oppo do the 3:2 pull up and deliver 30Hz to the Seiki panel to resolve the 24fps judder issue?

Cheers - #19
 
People that see half glass empty will always be drowning at the bottom...people seeing half glass full will always be floating and cheering on the top! I don't own a Rocket, nor a monster tower, and I always cheer about RED Improvements on the workflow.

Thanks Jarred!
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Jeff, were you able to have the Oppo do the 3:2 pull up and deliver 30Hz to the Seiki panel to resolve the 24fps judder issue?
Click to expand...

Went away to a certain extent, there's always some amount of judder with the 24 to 30 fps conversion, no matter who does it. The OPPO does a little better than the SEIKI when it comes to the pull-up. The real point here was that even though the SEIKI will accept UHD @ 24fps, it won't sync the display at 24Hz, only at 30Hz and there is always a conversion. Meh... I realize the Sony is nearly 5X the price and has its own share of issues, for only offering 5" more screen, but it at least does native 24Hz and has a much nicer, more capable and easier to calibrate panel. I'm chomping at the bit, waiting for the Samsung to arrive as I'm hoping it will be at least as good as the Sony and hopefully have fewer issues. Plus it doesn't have the Dumbo-ear speakers and there's the added potential of being able to upgrade interfaces and the onboard "smart" system.

I think what's frustrating is if I feed the SEIKI a 1080p 24Hz signal it syncs at 24fps just fine and there's no pull-up / judder. Only when operating in UHD does it force it to always run at 30Hz. I fear it has to do with whatever 4K processing hardware they have internally and this may not be something that can be fixed via firmware. I'm really surprised that more people are not turned off of the SEIKI by this. I'm thinking the reason most people don't see the problem is because there are not many 4K sources out there at the moment. Most seem to be connecting the SEIKI to computers and running at 30Hz 4K anyway.

If you look at the SEIKI by the numbers, it's not so much a 4K display as it's hyped to be. It's more of a really cheaply built, really crappy HDTV that just happens to have a 3840x2160 panel and very basic ability to display at that resolution.
 
The pessimist says the glass is half empty.
The optimist says the glass is half full.
The engineer says there's entirely too much glass.
 
Jeff, you say the OPPO ( some sort of player I assume ) does better on the Seiki ? How so ? maybe blending frames ?

Funny you say most people don't notice the judder because there are not many 4k sources. This fascinates me as well. Especially on a 4K camera forum. :mellow:

I still like my Seiki, I just play stuff at 30. I got the 39" so I think I'll sell my 50".
 
Les Dittert said:
Jeff, you say the OPPO ( some sort of player I assume ) does better on the Seiki ? How so ? maybe blending frames ?
Click to expand...

The judder is still there, but it must have some additional motion-smoothing or something, it just doesn't seem quite as harsh. I first noticed the judder when playing a movie on the OPPO to the SEIKI at 4K. Judder goes away when I dropped resolution down to 1080p. At first, I blamed the OPPO player. Forcing it to run at 30fps, even when showing a 24fps movie is no simple task because the stupid thing talks to the display and sees it takes 24fps input. I had to use a Gefen EDID box to do it.

Funny you say most people don't notice the judder because there are not many 4k sources. This fascinates me as well. Especially on a 4K camera forum. :mellow:
Click to expand...

That is the sad reality we live in. :( Although, I've seen several SEIKI panels, around a dozen in all, with my own eyes. Most of the owners of those panels and others I have talked to, do not see the judder issue. I guess some people are just not bothered by it or sensitive to it. Once people do see it, they usually go, "oh, yeah, I see that I didn't know you were talking about the jerky motion on pans and stuff. I just thought it was because it was shot on film... my other TVs do that too." Of course, people have a different take on displays these days. I'm always dumbfounded by the HDTV reviews online at places like Amazon and AVSForum. People actually want the high frame rate smooth motion look now. Of course, that doesn't fix judder, either. IMO, it makes it worse. I'm totally fine with high frame rates, as long as the content is shot for that delivery spec. When it's artificially created on the fly, on the display, it looks like shit.

I still like my Seiki, I just play stuff at 30. I got the 39" so I think I'll sell my 50".
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The SEIKI is fine if you're happy with it as a 30Hz display. I'm keeping mine, but it doesn't serve me for any real work where I need to see content presented at proper 24fps. The same reason we don't use our computer monitors to judge accurate cadence and frame motion. IMO, this is a key aspect of the display for which they need to be more forthcoming about. Because if you believe their marketing, you will think it actually displays UHD @ 24fps and it doesn't.
 
I'm getting excited about the RCX vision with GPU debayer. Can we download the beta yet?
 
Will Keir said:
Any word on this yet?
Thanks.
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Will, as far as I know Redcode is Redcode and Red RAW is Red RAW and I can NOT even imagine how the new GPU capability would be exclusive to one camera's footage vs. another. RCX sees is all the same I would think.
 
a step in the right direction. Even better if an internal processor could output 1080 from the camera as an option. Some shoots need to go straight to edit without an extra step in conforming/ transcoding.
 
Mike Halper said:
I notice on the image in the original post it shows RedCine-X Pro v19. Whatever happened to v18? We only ever got an alpha version of that. Will there be a release version of 18 before 19?
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I think (and this is just an educated guess) that version 18 will bring Dragon compatibility. Version 19 will be in the oven a little longer and bring GPU processing.

Remember, even if one of the Dragon shooters out there gave you a hard drive full of footage, you couldn't do a damn thing with it right now. RedCine-X and the SDK need to be released with compatibility before any of us plebeians can do anything with it.
 
2160P/30

2160P/30

Jeff Kilgroe said:
(snip) At first, I blamed the OPPO player. Forcing it to run at 30fps, even when showing a 24fps movie is no simple task because the stupid thing talks to the display and sees it takes 24fps input. I had to use a Gefen EDID box to do it. (snip)
Click to expand...

Jeff - were you able to "force" the 30Hz and get it to hold sync?

When I reached out to Oppo support asking if there was some way to select 30Hz as the output rate, they told me the BDP-103 will do 24Hz or 60Hz but not 30Hz. I followed up by asking if they would be so kind as to at least ask their engineers if a 30Hz option could be added via firmware, and if so, how much effort adding it would require.

My pitch was that at this time the Seiki panels, quality issues aside, have found a market for whom an upscaling optical disc player might be an attractive source option - especially since native UHD or 4K material is so limited. If it's a relatively simple addition to the next firmware rev; there's upside not only for getting early adopters of UHD displays to buy Oppo products but positive PR in the enthusiast community as a whole.

Of course I have no idea how many units Seiki has sold so far, so its not like I can make a case to Oppo that adding 30Hz will affect more than a handful of folks. That said, if you have a minute and care to do so, please contact Oppo and ask about 30Hz output. If its a hardware limitation of the current players then its moot, but if it can be added in firmware it sure would nice.

Cheers - #19
 
I'm using the Octane Renderer (GPU-based un-biased renderer) with 2 Titans at the moment and will probably add a cage with more, so this fits in well with my current and future hardware plans.

Thanks RED - this new GPU capability probably guarantees my upgrade to a Dragon as it lowers my cost and doesn't require an addition slot!!!

Hopefully, this goes into the API, so any 3rd party tool (Adobe, Eyeon, etc.) using the current API will get the same benefit?
 
Les C. said:
Hopefully, this goes into the API, so any 3rd party tool (Adobe, Eyeon, etc.) using the current API will get the same benefit?
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I would think it makes sense. Less and less people are transcodeing to proxies; more and more are working natively with the raw in various pieces of software. To make this a RedCine-X thing wouldn't really improve the workflow of most of the people that touch Red files. Add it to the SDK, however, and suddenly everyone can work easier with Red files. Which will ultimately lead to fewer "lively discussions" about whether a project should be shot on Red or shot on something that records to ProRes or DNxHD.
 
will it still be possible to disable gpu and fall back to cpu to maintain reliability?
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Jeff - were you able to "force" the 30Hz and get it to hold sync?

When I reached out to Oppo support asking if there was some way to select 30Hz as the output rate, they told me the BDP-103 will do 24Hz or 60Hz but not 30Hz. I followed up by asking if they would be so kind as to at least ask their engineers if a 30Hz option could be added via firmware, and if so, how much effort adding it would require.
Click to expand...

The Oppo does indeed do 30Hz @ 4K. 60Hz at 4K is not possible with the current HDMI spec... For its 4K upscaled output the Oppo supports 24fps and 30fps. If I remove 24fps from the EDID reporting of the display by running it through a GEFEN switch with EDID management, everything syncs at 3840x2160 @ 30Hz. / 29.97

FWIW, the Sony S750 4K upscaling Blu-Ray player will also sync at 30Hz and 24Hz. These players attempt to sync at a rate befitting the media they're playing, so if it's 24fps material they try 24fps first. If it's 30fps, they try that. If it's 60Hz, they go that route.

The Oppo likes to exist at 1080p60 until something is actually played.

At any rate, the issue here is the SEIKI display only operates the panel at 30Hz when using the full pixel resolution. Doesn't matter what signal is actually coming in, it pulls every 4K source up to 30Hz.
 
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