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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

So... A little sad about the "Weapon" announcement...

Greg M said:
I think Red has spoiled us...Buy a Sony, Canon or any other camera...use it, enjoy it and then thats it. No upgrade, nothing. Do we call this "end of Life"? No, its just the way it is. Technology moves fast...its time to buy another camera.
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There's nothing worse than telling a client what Sony camera you have, them going to the Sony website and then calling you back... "Sony says that camera is discontinued and obsolete... you're gonna use that?!?!"

At least, Red doesn't 'publish' that on their websites! Folks who own the 'older' cameras still have a fighting chance out there!
 
Clayton Taylor said:
I picked up my Scarlet X back around September... I haven't even had a chance to really use it much yet as I don't do this for a living (yet). My first production where I'll break it in is coming up this spring... Now there's the news about the weapon coming out... I can't afford to drop another 10k on top of the 18k or so I've already spent on the camera, batteries, accessories, lenses... etc. If I don't make it to a Dragon by end of the summer, then I'll have no upgrade options for my Scarlet. When I bought it I was told "You'll always have the option of upgrading to a Dragon." Yeah... apparently not the case. Looks like I just bought an end of life camera without even realizing it. :(
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Upgrade lines and programs do end after some time. It's just something that "needs" to happen due to the cost, labor, and demand to keep those lines open.

My trusty Scarlet-X served me very well. Won a few awards and all of that footage was shot in 4K and is still "part of me". But it was released late 2011 of course.

In your case, since the Weapon upgrade program will be running longer, making some cash to upgrade to Dragon makes sense. If you're aren't able to do that in the window left before that upgrade program ends, there's also the longer path of purchasing the new body at a later time. Which would give you a much, much larger window to make some dough.

I double upgraded to Epic Dragon and that was a heavy lift for me. It was the correct move 100%. Nearly everything I've shot since late 2013 has been on Epic Dragon or other people's Epic Dragons and the camera has paid itself off long ago.

The real trick for a lot of folks is working, the amount of work, and how often you gear is getting rented. This takes time to develop and it's very hard to just buy a camera and have it make income day 1. My particular business plan doesn't involve renting the gear without me. However, I do rent to productions I work on and I do my best to stay very busy most of the year. The market in LA is fairly saturated with rental houses and other folks providing very low rates for gear, however, I focused on the average rate (what major rental houses provide) in LA as I have a full kit with full support and low balling is bad juju overall when it comes down to it. You end up adding 1-5 years to your ROI and you'll be worse off for it.

However, there's certainly indie gigs I've taken on a dime and a prayer to help make a reality because there's interesting stuff to shoot out there and it's not always easy to get done. I understand that from a filmmaker's perspective. Also give myself a heck of a deal on the camera for my own productions. And that right there is the advantage of being an owner and operator.

Don't feel bad if you can't make the jump today or even a few months from now. You have to lay the tracks so more work is coming in if you want to build.

My personal advice. Considering your profession I'm betting there's something surrounding that that can bring you some regular-ish shooting income. Try to develop or look for those opportunities. More often than once I've found that there are unique opportunities often nearby that can boost you forward.
 
I stopped reading after guys were telling off Clayton. He bought the camera at great cost to himself under the understanding he could upgrade it to dragon at leisure when he could afford it. I fully encourage Red to offer an trade in upgrade, to users that bought their Scarlets in.the time frame that dragon was expected as an upgrade.

If he had a scarlet with dragon expecting to upgrade to the next thing, I would not be such a concern, as dragon is the first sensor I would classify as satisfactory. An upgrade to a new sensor in a normally lit shot for a 4k target is probably not going to improve too much over dragon.
 
Wayne Morellini said:
I stopped reading after guys were telling off Clayton. He bought the camera at great cost to himself under the understanding he could upgrade it to dragon at leisure when he could afford it. I fully encourage Red to offer an trade in upgrade, to users that bought their Scarlets in.the time frame that dragon was expected as an upgrade.
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Thank you - that was my main concern - I was told by my rep that I could upgrade to dragon at any time... I get that they didnt foresee weapon coming out so soon and dragon being discontinued... but still. I don't usually keep 20k just lying around to drop into cameras. But as I was told, and agreed to, there's still plenty of life in my camera - it was just the fact that oh well, cant upgrade now. yeah I could sell it and take a loss on something brand new - same as buying a car I guess. Just a little frustrated is all. If I'd known I'd have held off a few more months, built up more cash, and picked up a dragon.
 
You are only 5055, you would think it would be 55055 by now. How much are you really going to loose selling your camera and buying a new one compared to waiting for an upgrade anyway.

I think offering an upgrade to the latest would be a good thing for Red, to further reduce the loss.

Red should do these upgrades for the few users left out, and offer to sell the cameras to film schools, so that students come straight out used to Red. They could do a package with one if the latest cameras to show students how much better it is, for when they want to buy something. Simple sales tactic.
 
Wayne Morellini said:
You are only 5055, you would think it would be 55055 by now. How much are you really going to loose selling your camera and buying a new one compared to waiting for an upgrade anyway.
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Well, the brain cost 8k a couple of months ago... I'm guessing with it getting out now that its end of the line I imagine it will be cut in half... at least... if I could find a buyer.
 
Wayne Morellini said:
I stopped reading after guys were telling off Clayton. He bought the camera at great cost to himself under the understanding he could upgrade it to dragon at leisure when he could afford it. I fully encourage Red to offer an trade in upgrade, to users that bought their Scarlets in.the time frame that dragon was expected as an upgrade.

If he had a scarlet with dragon expecting to upgrade to the next thing, I would not be such a concern, as dragon is the first sensor I would classify as satisfactory. An upgrade to a new sensor in a normally lit shot for a 4k target is probably not going to improve too much over dragon.
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I think it´s safe to say that in the future there will be a demand for cameras that can also shoot great shots where the light is not "normally lit". To me it's obvious that Sensors and cameras will continue to improve rapidly, even in the future. So I dont think Dragon is as good as it gets and weapon will probably not be the last camera that we can upgrade to...

Epic has been around for 5 years... 5 years from now weapon will probably even feel older than the Red One MX does today, as the development just goes faster and faster.
 
Clayton Taylor said:
I picked up my Scarlet X back around September... I haven't even had a chance to really use it much yet as I don't do this for a living (yet). My first production where I'll break it in is coming up this spring... Now there's the news about the weapon coming out... I can't afford to drop another 10k on top of the 18k or so I've already spent on the camera, batteries, accessories, lenses... etc. If I don't make it to a Dragon by end of the summer, then I'll have no upgrade options for my Scarlet. When I bought it I was told "You'll always have the option of upgrading to a Dragon." Yeah... apparently not the case. Looks like I just bought an end of life camera without even realizing it. :(
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Just write a screenplay, cast it, do all the pre production, shoot it, do all the post and sell it for a 200K profit. Then buy a brand new Carbon Weapon with all the accessories and a cup of coffee and start writing your next script. What's the problem?
 
Clayton Taylor said:
Well, the brain cost 8k a couple of months ago... I'm guessing with it getting out now that its end of the line I imagine it will be cut in half... at least... if I could find a buyer.
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Not to make you feel bad but, in the future, you may be able to time things better. I received my Scarlet almost 3 years ago and paid the same $8K or so for the brain. Right now, I could still get $8000 in trade-in for a $17,500 Epic. Until a few days ago, that looked like a great deal - and it was. Now, however, as time marches on and Dragon looks like the clearest "easy" path (no selling and buying back in) to the future, the value has started to dip - I get just $5K turning my Scarlet into a $14.5K Scarlet Dragon with an "advantageous" upgrade path. Not really too bad.

You are kind of late to the game and that does suck. But, if you stick with things as they evolve, I think you will see opportunities to take advantage of being a RED customer.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Björn Benckert said:
I think it´s safe to say that in the future there will be a demand for cameras that can also shoot great shots where the light is not "normally lit". To me it's obvious that Sensors and cameras will continue to improve rapidly, even in the future. So I dont think Dragon is as good as it gets and weapon will probably not be the last camera that we can upgrade to...
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Björn, I'm only saying, with a dragon you can do a descent job with standard practice, so is a keeper.
 
just use a Citibank card to finance a scarlet dragon...18 months no interest, no minimum payments...that and other cards helped me leap frog scarlet->epc->dragon
 
your camera isn't going to be shut off once weapon comes out.. your camera wills till make the same awesome pictures and honestly.. NO ONE HERE WILL BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE

don't worry about gear.. just go out and make cool shit with what you have

I have seen lots of guys just constantly buying the next thing, and unfortunately can't shoot.. your scarlet is enough.. the real reason for an upgrade to lets say an epic would be if you need to shoot high speed.. but just rent in that situation.. you can rent an epic for like 300 bucks (at least in LA)
hell.. I've seen them go for 150
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
your camera isn't going to be shut off once weapon comes out.. your camera wills till make the same awesome pictures and honestly.. NO ONE HERE WILL BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE

don't worry about gear.. just go out and make cool shit with what you have

I have seen lots of guys just constantly buying the next thing, and unfortunately can't shoot.. your scarlet is enough.. the real reason for an upgrade to lets say an epic would be if you need to shoot high speed.. but just rent in that situation.. you can rent an epic for like 300 bucks (at least in LA)
hell.. I've seen them go for 150
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Yep - if you're learning / starting your business; spend your money on what's in front of the camera so you can build a reel.
Spend your money on taking potential clients to lunch.
Spend your money on training.
Spend your money on...
 
Brian Merlen said:
just use a Citibank card to finance a scarlet dragon...18 months no interest, no minimum payments...that and other cards helped me leap frog scarlet->epc->dragon
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obviously i dont know your financial situation, but in general, putting 20k+ on a credit card is a very irresponsible idea lol. you better pay that off within 18 months or the interest will spiral out of control
 
George Butterfield said:
Just write a screenplay, cast it, do all the pre production, shoot it, do all the post and sell it for a 200K profit. Then buy a brand new Carbon Weapon with all the accessories and a cup of coffee and start writing your next script. What's the problem?
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Hmmm. That easy? :)

and who pays cast and crew - considering you wouldn't need any other piece of equipment?
And how easy is it to sell a finished movie? And to who? Its tough enough for indies to get their movies out, isn't it?

Not trying to be sarcastic. I would really like to get an honest answer, because If it is that easy I'd really love to know! :)
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
your camera isn't going to be shut off once weapon comes out.. your camera wills till make the same awesome pictures and honestly.. NO ONE HERE WILL BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE
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On a well graded and choose shot that doesnt show the weaknesses or strength of either. :)

Seriously, just look at ungraded footage in high contrast bright and diark colorful scene, and in between, and then also compare what low contrast versions balso look like. That should give you an good idea of a f the cameras are close enough together, all the rest is artificial and work.
 
I find the ones who are more concerned with having the latest and greatest are the guys that rent their equipment, not so much the artist. No one really gives a shit which camera Emmanuel Lubezki shoots on when they hire him. Scarlet is more than enough camera to make a great film. What's involved in the production process matters so much more. Art department, sound, talent, crew, etc...The race to the top is a never ending race. If you want to be the guy that rents his equipment then maybe it matters, if you want to be the guy that gets hired for his talent then it doesn't matter. Cameras are getting cheaper, most will opt to own than rent. Invest in your talent or rent your camera and post cool pictures on Facebook of the cool productions using your camera which you had nothing to do with.
 
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