Brody_B
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Slow Motion with RED : Best practices
- Thread starter David Battistella
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Björn Benckert
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Just a touch test.
Raven resolution 4.5k WS 120fps in heavy rain. If you got to much noise then you are doing it wrong or you do not have enough light. This is not much light and hard to compress stuff due to the rain. Still this looks very usable to me.
r3d: https://app.frame.io/f/FwQmPkrw
https://vimeo.com/163811961
https://vimeo.com/163811961
Raven resolution 4.5k WS 120fps in heavy rain. If you got to much noise then you are doing it wrong or you do not have enough light. This is not much light and hard to compress stuff due to the rain. Still this looks very usable to me.
r3d: https://app.frame.io/f/FwQmPkrw
https://vimeo.com/163811961
C. Phillips
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Kris,
I appreciate that fam. I think you understood what most people lost sight of in this post. Not everyone shoots exclusively on RED cameras and with VERY LITTLE footage out there, the Dragon sensors still being relatively new to some DP's (a lot still deal with the MX sensor cameras), new OLPF offerings, and a new body, there are new scenarios to test out, and no one has all of the answers. Like I said before, there are no HFR videos past 150fps out there I've seen on the new Dragon sensors, and nothing on the new Weapon body cameras past 72 fps, except Brian's video. So really, I did what I could to help people make informed decisions, and start conversation and maybe learn something, and I am humble to that. Someone gave the suggestion to rate the camera at a lower ISO with the skin tone OLPF, and I will try that.
I actually haven't read all of the comments and don't plan to. I read the first pages, then when I was free again, picked up around page 11, so I was not aware of the hate on the thread until someone pointed it out in a private message about the hate during NAB time. I stated in an earlier post that I directed a feature film that I am working on in post. So, my time was limited, and it takes time for me to do test shots, convert, upload, take screen shots, etc. so people need to appreciate that. I know I do when others do it. I haven't even used my Scarlet-W on a professional shoot yet, and that sample is one of only like five total shots used with the camera because I've been busy working on my project, making film festival appearances for my other film, etc. so cats need to calm down. If someone is running their mouth about my abilities or whatever, they are entitled to their own opinion. But when you are blessed to direct, produce, DP, a feature doc with a budget in the six-figure range for a major network like I am doing now without having gone to school for this, those petty comments aren't even going to phase me, especially coming from where I am from. It also speaks to the fact that I MUST be doing something right. And if some of these people would stop with the hate, maybe they would be doing the same thing or even better. That's not to knock anybody that hasn't done that type of work, because I don't care if you are doing your own independent film, if you knew me, I celebrate ALL film work because I love this craft. But some people are career haters, and spending more of their time criticizing on these forums instead of adding to more constructive and positive discussion so that we can help EACH OTHER become better filmmakers. One thing I love about the internet is how accessible it makes it for people to get help. I have made love for people that take the time to do tutorials and don't get paid for it. That's some real ish.
In any case, thank you Kris, and everyone that has added to the positive feedback, constructive ideas and help. That's what this was all about. I am glad I was able to help some of you, and when I get the opportunity, I will try to do more tests with the suggestions I have received to continue to help, especially since the cameras are trickling out slow. I also will conduct tests unrelated to the subject if it helps save you $10,000 on a purchase you might not be fully happy with. Kris, I think some of these people forget that these cameras cost more than many automobiles, so like a car, if it offers a certain feature, you expect it to perform well. With my purchase, I bought it MOSTLY for the high frame rates since I already own a Scarlet-MX, and if it is not performing to my expectations, I have the right as a customer to speak up about that. I have several different cameras including some Black Magic's. I had the 4K camera, and sent it back after a week because they still didn't address the fixed noise pattern, and black spot issue. Pointing these things out and making complaints ultimately force these manufacturers to deliver us better products. That's what we all want right? I'm not even hating on any brand either. I think RED has better customer service and tech support than Black Magic,
however Black Magic has changed the game by offering great specs at remarkable price points (granted they have tech issues, but what new manufacturer doesn't?) I pray that every gets something useful from this feed. Shout out to all of you guys and gals!
Sincerely,
C. Phillips
I appreciate that fam. I think you understood what most people lost sight of in this post. Not everyone shoots exclusively on RED cameras and with VERY LITTLE footage out there, the Dragon sensors still being relatively new to some DP's (a lot still deal with the MX sensor cameras), new OLPF offerings, and a new body, there are new scenarios to test out, and no one has all of the answers. Like I said before, there are no HFR videos past 150fps out there I've seen on the new Dragon sensors, and nothing on the new Weapon body cameras past 72 fps, except Brian's video. So really, I did what I could to help people make informed decisions, and start conversation and maybe learn something, and I am humble to that. Someone gave the suggestion to rate the camera at a lower ISO with the skin tone OLPF, and I will try that.
I actually haven't read all of the comments and don't plan to. I read the first pages, then when I was free again, picked up around page 11, so I was not aware of the hate on the thread until someone pointed it out in a private message about the hate during NAB time. I stated in an earlier post that I directed a feature film that I am working on in post. So, my time was limited, and it takes time for me to do test shots, convert, upload, take screen shots, etc. so people need to appreciate that. I know I do when others do it. I haven't even used my Scarlet-W on a professional shoot yet, and that sample is one of only like five total shots used with the camera because I've been busy working on my project, making film festival appearances for my other film, etc. so cats need to calm down. If someone is running their mouth about my abilities or whatever, they are entitled to their own opinion. But when you are blessed to direct, produce, DP, a feature doc with a budget in the six-figure range for a major network like I am doing now without having gone to school for this, those petty comments aren't even going to phase me, especially coming from where I am from. It also speaks to the fact that I MUST be doing something right. And if some of these people would stop with the hate, maybe they would be doing the same thing or even better. That's not to knock anybody that hasn't done that type of work, because I don't care if you are doing your own independent film, if you knew me, I celebrate ALL film work because I love this craft. But some people are career haters, and spending more of their time criticizing on these forums instead of adding to more constructive and positive discussion so that we can help EACH OTHER become better filmmakers. One thing I love about the internet is how accessible it makes it for people to get help. I have made love for people that take the time to do tutorials and don't get paid for it. That's some real ish.
In any case, thank you Kris, and everyone that has added to the positive feedback, constructive ideas and help. That's what this was all about. I am glad I was able to help some of you, and when I get the opportunity, I will try to do more tests with the suggestions I have received to continue to help, especially since the cameras are trickling out slow. I also will conduct tests unrelated to the subject if it helps save you $10,000 on a purchase you might not be fully happy with. Kris, I think some of these people forget that these cameras cost more than many automobiles, so like a car, if it offers a certain feature, you expect it to perform well. With my purchase, I bought it MOSTLY for the high frame rates since I already own a Scarlet-MX, and if it is not performing to my expectations, I have the right as a customer to speak up about that. I have several different cameras including some Black Magic's. I had the 4K camera, and sent it back after a week because they still didn't address the fixed noise pattern, and black spot issue. Pointing these things out and making complaints ultimately force these manufacturers to deliver us better products. That's what we all want right? I'm not even hating on any brand either. I think RED has better customer service and tech support than Black Magic,
however Black Magic has changed the game by offering great specs at remarkable price points (granted they have tech issues, but what new manufacturer doesn't?) I pray that every gets something useful from this feed. Shout out to all of you guys and gals!
Sincerely,
C. Phillips
C. Phillips
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Bjorn,
Thank you for sharing. One thing I notice with what everyone is doing with their examples is not remembering that I said this issue is with footage beyond 150fps where the compression is lower, and resolution drops. My issue wasn't with the 120 fps shots at 4K. I posted tests at 200 and 253 fps on the Scarlet-W. Big difference.
Thank you for sharing. One thing I notice with what everyone is doing with their examples is not remembering that I said this issue is with footage beyond 150fps where the compression is lower, and resolution drops. My issue wasn't with the 120 fps shots at 4K. I posted tests at 200 and 253 fps on the Scarlet-W. Big difference.
C. Phillips
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Brian,
What's interesting is someone posted a shot of the Raven's compression, and at some resolutions, it's actually better. Not by a heap, but better in some cases. I think I saw at one of the frame rate the Scarlet-W is 11:1 and Raven is 10:1, or something like that. If anything, the deposit can be refunded, and it least it will lock you in just case you need more time to go back and forth. Good thing about the Scarlet-W is it does have the anamorphic modes which were not on my previous Scarlet-MX, and you can use the various mounts. So for good 5k footage in those scenarios up to 100 fps., not a bad decision. At this point, I still am more satisfied with the Epic-X with the BEYOND 150 fps footage. I received the suggestion to rate the sensor lower with the skin tone OLPF and I am going to try that as soon as possible. That may help the noise, but I know there is some artifacts I am seeing that won't be fixed with the ISO because it is about compression.
As far as monochrome, I know they are more sensitive in low light. I heard about that back when they released the Epic in monochrome. It's something about the photosites on the sensor but I can't explain it exactly. But for that reason, it does give me slight hope that it may make a difference, but I am not sure because of once again, compression ratios. But I can confirm that there should be less noise.
Check out this video shot on a monochrome RED!
"Suit and Tie" Justin Timberlake featuring Jay-Z (Shot on Epic Monochrome)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsUsVbTj2AY
What's interesting is someone posted a shot of the Raven's compression, and at some resolutions, it's actually better. Not by a heap, but better in some cases. I think I saw at one of the frame rate the Scarlet-W is 11:1 and Raven is 10:1, or something like that. If anything, the deposit can be refunded, and it least it will lock you in just case you need more time to go back and forth. Good thing about the Scarlet-W is it does have the anamorphic modes which were not on my previous Scarlet-MX, and you can use the various mounts. So for good 5k footage in those scenarios up to 100 fps., not a bad decision. At this point, I still am more satisfied with the Epic-X with the BEYOND 150 fps footage. I received the suggestion to rate the sensor lower with the skin tone OLPF and I am going to try that as soon as possible. That may help the noise, but I know there is some artifacts I am seeing that won't be fixed with the ISO because it is about compression.
As far as monochrome, I know they are more sensitive in low light. I heard about that back when they released the Epic in monochrome. It's something about the photosites on the sensor but I can't explain it exactly. But for that reason, it does give me slight hope that it may make a difference, but I am not sure because of once again, compression ratios. But I can confirm that there should be less noise.
Check out this video shot on a monochrome RED!
"Suit and Tie" Justin Timberlake featuring Jay-Z (Shot on Epic Monochrome)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsUsVbTj2AY
Well, we tried to help you. We were several telling you that it's mainly an exposure problem but you didn't give a shit and said that it's not linked to the 800iso point because it's raw etc. I personally had the same disappointment with the scarlet-D, which has half the power, until I realised that I was underexposing and pushing my iso in post, it was awful, especially with the skintone olpf. Then I exposed for 320iso trying not to touch the exposure in post and even 2k is wonderful @7:1 or 8:1. Raw is a thing, but if you expose at 800iso or 320iso during the shoot you are opening or closing your lens accordingly, raw cannot do anything magical then, different amount of light is entering your camera. Everybody is rating the skintone olpf at 320iso. If you shoot at 800iso and meter for 800iso, it will obviously be underexposed for the 320iso sweet spot, you will push the exposure in post and get ugly grain. With low redcode at high resolution you can push the iso, etc, you have data to do so. With cropped compressed slowmo it's more sensitive, you have to be more careful. And take a 5k image, push the iso all the way up, you will have some heavy grain too that you don't see at a good exposure. But well, whatever .....
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C. Phillips
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EXACTLY!!! That speaks more about their character as human beings more than anything. Why would you say anything about my abilities BEFORE:
A) Seeing my work
B) Not owning or using this camera
C) Not having seen ANY test footage or knowing the specs
That kind of judgement people make against others without lack of knowledge or understanding CRIPPLES our society. In addition, I keep saying TIME, and time again, that these are TESTS. I don't care if you are Wally Pfister, or Roger Deakins, they don't know EVERY camera right out of the box! Plus, best believe they do the same thing (shooting tests) before choosing what to use on set. Deakins has shot on film, but in the case of Skyfall, he used an Arri. So why a person would try to knock me considering these things, says a lot about them. Regardless, I'm blessed and doing very well professionally.
Let me know how that 7" inch is! I may consider getting it myself, so let me know if the screen is clearer and if it is too bulky. I am using the old 5" with a Lemo Adapter right now. Still works like a charm! But, I want to get a wireless monitor like the new ones they are offering. But I feel you about the wait though! Ha! Ha! I had accessories sitting for weeks with no brain! My outrigger handle just got allocated a couple days ago and I will be using that when I get back in town.
Thanks for chiming in!
Sincerely,
C. Phillips
A) Seeing my work
B) Not owning or using this camera
C) Not having seen ANY test footage or knowing the specs
That kind of judgement people make against others without lack of knowledge or understanding CRIPPLES our society. In addition, I keep saying TIME, and time again, that these are TESTS. I don't care if you are Wally Pfister, or Roger Deakins, they don't know EVERY camera right out of the box! Plus, best believe they do the same thing (shooting tests) before choosing what to use on set. Deakins has shot on film, but in the case of Skyfall, he used an Arri. So why a person would try to knock me considering these things, says a lot about them. Regardless, I'm blessed and doing very well professionally.
Let me know how that 7" inch is! I may consider getting it myself, so let me know if the screen is clearer and if it is too bulky. I am using the old 5" with a Lemo Adapter right now. Still works like a charm! But, I want to get a wireless monitor like the new ones they are offering. But I feel you about the wait though! Ha! Ha! I had accessories sitting for weeks with no brain! My outrigger handle just got allocated a couple days ago and I will be using that when I get back in town.
Thanks for chiming in!
Sincerely,
C. Phillips
C. Phillips
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Tarquin,
Very true man! I had the thought about the Raven for a minute, because it is in many ways on par with the Scarlet-W and I was thinking about still getting one before the price goes up. However, I think now, I am going to get the Alexa Mini and focus on that. Dope images from that bad boy. Just $40,000 plus though! Ugh!
Very true man! I had the thought about the Raven for a minute, because it is in many ways on par with the Scarlet-W and I was thinking about still getting one before the price goes up. However, I think now, I am going to get the Alexa Mini and focus on that. Dope images from that bad boy. Just $40,000 plus though! Ugh!
The Raven doesn't do 4.5k full frame. Only a ratio between 4.5kWS and 4.5k 2:1 (4608 x 2160 2.1:1). The scarlet-W does 4.5kFF and the more official 4.5k 2:1 (4608 x 2304). There is a different redcode then between the bigger 2:1 ratio image of the scarlet-W and the smaller 2.1:1 ratio image of the Raven. It's not really part of the official ratios anyway but it's described as FF in the Raven documents, which it is not really, it's a shortcut to tell that it's the full frame of the smaller Raven sensor. Everything else from 4.5k 2.40 to 2k is exactly the same between raven and scarlet regarding redcodes.
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C. Phillips
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Dana,
Will do. Might take me a week or so before I get an opportunity, but I can do it. I would like to say that if you are trying to do UP to 120 fps you're good for the most part and I would not regret getting the Scarlet-W. But beyond the 150fps is where it looks not as good as the Epic-X. But you're right about the Epic MX. Still is a DOPE camera! I'm not one of those people that goes out and gets hype about every new thing out there because we both know, technology always evolves. But as the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I still have a Galaxy 3 phone. Ha! Ha! Probably considered stone-age to some by now. My friends crack up because they're like,
Them: "You can get a $20,000 camera, but have that old phone?!"
Me: "Yeeeeeaah... but that's different though..."
HAAAAAA!!!!
Will do. Might take me a week or so before I get an opportunity, but I can do it. I would like to say that if you are trying to do UP to 120 fps you're good for the most part and I would not regret getting the Scarlet-W. But beyond the 150fps is where it looks not as good as the Epic-X. But you're right about the Epic MX. Still is a DOPE camera! I'm not one of those people that goes out and gets hype about every new thing out there because we both know, technology always evolves. But as the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I still have a Galaxy 3 phone. Ha! Ha! Probably considered stone-age to some by now. My friends crack up because they're like,
Them: "You can get a $20,000 camera, but have that old phone?!"
Me: "Yeeeeeaah... but that's different though..."
HAAAAAA!!!!
C. Phillips
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Ugo,
No, not all tried to help from what I am hearing. Trust, I saw the comment about the 800 ISO. I got a nice inbox with some examples and a thorough explanation. I also noted in a few comments a couple times, I would give that a shot. Plus, I also said, I am mad busy, so I haven't had the time to try it yet. It was a struggle just to get the opportunity to upload the sample I sent. What I am also referring to is people making comments about my abilities prior to seeing any footage, work, I've done, and making all sorts of the assumptions. Unnecessary. I am okay with people saying, "Hey, try this..." Totally aware of the punching in of the resolution because this isn't my first RED. But I think the conversation and ruling out the facts is healthy. It can be done so without all of the extra. Keep in mind that's why I all shared the Epic footage with the same resolution. But it was the person that sent me the inbox with the samples and he also used the skin tone OLPF that helped. So trust, I accept the suggestions.
No, not all tried to help from what I am hearing. Trust, I saw the comment about the 800 ISO. I got a nice inbox with some examples and a thorough explanation. I also noted in a few comments a couple times, I would give that a shot. Plus, I also said, I am mad busy, so I haven't had the time to try it yet. It was a struggle just to get the opportunity to upload the sample I sent. What I am also referring to is people making comments about my abilities prior to seeing any footage, work, I've done, and making all sorts of the assumptions. Unnecessary. I am okay with people saying, "Hey, try this..." Totally aware of the punching in of the resolution because this isn't my first RED. But I think the conversation and ruling out the facts is healthy. It can be done so without all of the extra. Keep in mind that's why I all shared the Epic footage with the same resolution. But it was the person that sent me the inbox with the samples and he also used the skin tone OLPF that helped. So trust, I accept the suggestions.
C. Phillips
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Kris,
With the tests I have done, granted I will do some more with the suggestions given, be safe, and rent the Epic for now to continue to get the high frame shots you need, especially if you are getting paid for a client. I don't want you to buy, and then get disappointed. However, I think the Raven price goes up after today, so maybe put the deposit down just in case, because it will give you time to fully decide since the allocations are trickling out slowly.
This is a new dope video shot with the Raven, but at :47 with the corn dropping on the table, I see some of the artifacts. It's not consistent throughout the video, which makes me wonder about the settings, compression, and frame rate. But still, the video is nice.
https://vimeo.com/162923582
Give me your thoughts on the sample and please share the doc when you're finished or when it becomes available! I'd love to check it out!
With the tests I have done, granted I will do some more with the suggestions given, be safe, and rent the Epic for now to continue to get the high frame shots you need, especially if you are getting paid for a client. I don't want you to buy, and then get disappointed. However, I think the Raven price goes up after today, so maybe put the deposit down just in case, because it will give you time to fully decide since the allocations are trickling out slowly.
This is a new dope video shot with the Raven, but at :47 with the corn dropping on the table, I see some of the artifacts. It's not consistent throughout the video, which makes me wonder about the settings, compression, and frame rate. But still, the video is nice.
https://vimeo.com/162923582
Give me your thoughts on the sample and please share the doc when you're finished or when it becomes available! I'd love to check it out!
C. Phillips
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Bjorn,
By the way, BIIIIIIG shout out to you for sharing this fam! PLUS, you shared an R3D! Much appreciated and it helps add to the discussion! THANK YOU!
Everybody, check this guy out!
Sincerely,
C. Phillips
By the way, BIIIIIIG shout out to you for sharing this fam! PLUS, you shared an R3D! Much appreciated and it helps add to the discussion! THANK YOU!
Everybody, check this guy out!
Sincerely,
C. Phillips
C. Phillips
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Brody,
I agree with you. If people, think about it and correct me if I am wrong, the only people that have uploaded any 200 fps shots and up with the Scarlet-W are myself and Brian. One thing we agree with is that there are some artifacts, but whether it is usable we have different stances on. I personally am more comfortable with still using an Epic-X or Epic Dragon for these high frame rates, but that is just me.
Sincerely,
I agree with you. If people, think about it and correct me if I am wrong, the only people that have uploaded any 200 fps shots and up with the Scarlet-W are myself and Brian. One thing we agree with is that there are some artifacts, but whether it is usable we have different stances on. I personally am more comfortable with still using an Epic-X or Epic Dragon for these high frame rates, but that is just me.
Sincerely,
C. Phillips
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Clayton,
Also I made sure to note in the original post that the clips were put in a 3K timeline at the resolution noted in the first shot, I then placed the 2K shot in the same timeline which is why it is "windowed." I exported it in that 3K resolution as is, and when I uploaded it to Vimeo, it didn't allow the 3K resolution setting, but there is a 2K and 1080P option. So maybe Vimeo downscaled it a touch to 2K.
Also I made sure to note in the original post that the clips were put in a 3K timeline at the resolution noted in the first shot, I then placed the 2K shot in the same timeline which is why it is "windowed." I exported it in that 3K resolution as is, and when I uploaded it to Vimeo, it didn't allow the 3K resolution setting, but there is a 2K and 1080P option. So maybe Vimeo downscaled it a touch to 2K.
Clayton Arnall
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How would you feel about posting the R3D from that 3K 200 fps clip?
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David Battistella
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Bjorn,
Are these Weapon shots scaled to raven size and compression, or Raven shots?
David
Are these Weapon shots scaled to raven size and compression, or Raven shots?
David
Dan Landoni
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Still seeing some weird stuff going on in Bjorn's car 120FPS car video. Could be just me...
Going to be shooting tests tomorrow night on Scarlet-W. Anyone need anything specific? I'll upload R3D files once my darn mini-mag reader arrives.
Going to be shooting tests tomorrow night on Scarlet-W. Anyone need anything specific? I'll upload R3D files once my darn mini-mag reader arrives.
Blair S. Paulsen
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Agree that going over 4K 120fps on Raven or Scarlet-W will have some drawbacks, primarily due to data rate limitations. That said, I'd test running your 4K 120fps through Twixtor to get 240 and see how it looks to you. Keep in mind, more light almost always means less noise. If you need more than 240 (10x at 23.98) then I recommend you track down a Weapon - or a Phantom...
Cheers - #19
Cheers - #19
Brian Merlen
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In general the cropping in phantom and red systems harm the images much more than the non cropping Arri high speed cuz your blowing up noise. At least this is my status quo pre mini mags. So if anything my expectations are high for improvement between these high through put spankin new cameras coupled with faster through put media vs my former MX and dragon OG non mini mag shots. It's not like we didn't shoot high speed prior to mini mags. Plus auto black shades will help a lot of this by cleaning that noise floor! As a long time user it's easy to see how the above will help prevent a lot of the historic issues when doing this stuff on red. Just trying to give perspective cuz even red one guys overcranked?