Slow Motion with RED : Best practices

[David Battistella]

Hi, There are a lot of new people coming to the forums and I thought I would start this best practices thread as a resource to people shooting high speed footage with their RED cameras for the first time. Want to welcome those with anything to add to please contribute to this thread.

A RED camera treats over cranked footage much like film. This is how it works:

• The timebase is 23.98 (film is 24)
• The number of frames you shoot in the time base is the over or under crank. Let's use 72fps as an example.

The RED captures 72fps (in 23.98 timebase) instead of the regular 24 fps in (23.98 timebase) so that when you play back the footage in a 23.98 timeline, you see it plays the 72 frames per second in a 23.98 time base the way film does. For example, if you record for one second at 48 frames per second it takes two seconds to play the footage back. Here is a chart to help illustrate this:

Slow Motion: time in seconds of footage recorded at different fps compared to acquired time in seconds of footage in slo mo.

• 1 second @24 FPS= 1 second clip duration plays back for 1 seconds in a 23.98 timeline
• 1 second @48 FPS= 2 second clip duration plays back for 2 seconds in a 23.98 timeline
• 1 second @72 FPS= 3 second clip duration plays back for 3 seconds in a 23.98 timeline
• 1 second @96 FPS= 4 second clip duration plays back for 4 seconds in a 23.98 timeline
• 1 second @120FPS= 5 second clip duration plays back for 5 seconds in a 23.98 timeline

It is evident that with RED or FILM, over cranking the camera is actually capturing more frames in one second. This is the exact principle the SUPER high speed cameras like Weiss Cam and Phantom use, as well. These cameras are capable of capturing up to 1000 or even 4000 frames in one second. That means (with enough light) they can "see" a bullet flying through the air.Film works in exactly the same way. It captures more information in the same time base. One second is always one second, you are just telling the camera to capture MORE FRAMES in that one second, so in film and RED you are simply capturing more information and you do not need to do anything other than drop the footage into a 23.98 time base.What happens in a 5D (or Panasonic HVX 200) is that they use the sensor's 60 frame clock speed to capture the extra frames. While the footage is being recorded, frames are marked for processing. Through a special process, the footage is extracted and the frames playback as slow motion in a 23.98 timebase. (99.9% of all video based editing is 23.98 and NOT 24fps).

The way RED differs from film is this.The RED reduces the amount of sensor you capture in order to get higher speeds.

Here you can see the frames per second increases as you window the sensor (capture less image area.

LEAVE YOUR TIMEBASE ALONE JUST CHANGE THE FPS
To many people think that they have to use a 59.94 timebase for slow motion. DON'T DO THIS. Another in-camera method is to capture at 59.94. You can to convert 720p60 footage into very smooth slow motion using the CONFORM option of Cinema Tools. My advice when capturing 59.94 is to capture progressive frames; this way the footage can be interpolated back to 23.98, a pulldown can be added and a slow motion effect can be created by telling the software that the footage is 23.98. When it sees 60 frames, it plays them back at 23.98 speed. Here again, the limitation is 60fps slow motion. If you wanted to make that 120fps slow motion, you would only be doubling frames instead of playing back 120 unique frames -- you would be playing back every frame twice to simulate a slow motion effect.There is a big difference between in-camera Film Style Slow Motion and this method. Remember that with film style slow motion, the camera is capturing every frame, whereas in post-produced slow motion, the frames are being interpolated.

IMPORTANT FACTORS - CHECKLIST
The challenges with high speed is three fold.
1. You loose stops as you request higher speed
2. The RED needs to shoot at higher compression rates to shoot high speed (it's a. Bandwidth issue)
3. To get to the Highest speeds you shoot on a windowed sensor.
4. Shutter Angle can change requiring Black Shading calibration for the shutter speeds you shoot at.
Many image quality things can work against you.

THE COMMON MISTAKES
underexposed/high ISOhigh compressioncropped sensorNo new blackshading

REMEMBER STOP LOSS WHEN OVERCRANKING
24fps = 1/48 (benchmark light level)
48fps = 1/96 (1 stop light loss)
60fps = 1/12096fps = 1/192 (2 stops light loss)
120fps = 1/240
192fps = 1/384 (3 stops light loss)
240fps = 1/480
300fps = 1/600 (just under 4 stops light loss)
768 fps = 1/1536 (5 stops of light loss)
1,000fps = 1/20001,536fps = 1/3072 (6 stops of light loss)

R3D SAMPLES from CLIPS
Vimeo https://vimeo.com/163683335

 

[David Battistella]

One of the most important things to understand is that the DRAGON sensor is completely different from the MX sensor. It is a new imager and it needs to be tested as thought it is a whole new camera, because, in essence it is.

The STH OLPF combination with the Dragon sensor in particular is geared toward skin tone/drama work and creates a base image which most resembles the Alexa (somewhat green tint). You are seeing the combination of a few things I described in an earlier post. STH, underexposure, windowed sensor, high frame rate and black shading calibration.

With the STH it's a great plan to rate (depending on the scene) lower ISO and hit the sensor hard (with light). This scene you present on STH (with a lot of high shadow area and wide contrast) could have been rated at 250-400 ISO and this would ensure that the you would not be seeing RED DOT shadow noise in the image. You can really push the dragon sensor with a lot of light before clipping with the STH installed and I would say ESPECIALLY in scenes where you want to get shadow detail.

I think the same shot on Standard would not be producing this effect. The shadow areas can get a bit mushy in lowlight.

We are so used to protecting highlights with the MX sensor and digging stuff out of the shadows, that if we expose this way on the STH filter, you end up with the kind of artifacting you are seeing here. IN my first days with the DRAGON STH combo, I had some similar exposure stuf happening, but I noticed it less because I always rated MX at 320 and did so with the DRAGON STH combo. I noticed great improvements, but others (who tend to use a base ISO of 800 we getting caught with RED dot noise due to under exposure. IF you rate the STH at 250-320 open until the image clips and wind it bac a half stop, you are golden.

The LLO and STANDARD OLPF's give you a much more similar image to the MX, with the benefits of the DRAGON sensor.

For 253 FPS you had to be in 2K and, just as a reminder, you are using less that 1.4 of the sensor resolution to capture your images (that is the trick to RED slomotion) it is not scaled but windowed, by exposing only 1/4 of the sensor, you can UP the framerates.

Honestly, 3K or 4K slow motion can yield much better results because you are not punching in so much.

See the samples in the post above.

David

 

[David Battistella]

Now here is the kicker, I posted this earlier and some of you watched it. But what you may be shocked at if you are honest with yourself, the opening shot is actually a 3K 3072 x 1284, 201fps SCALED UP image! If I didn't say anything, some of you wouldn't have known IF you're being honest. Still looks great! Redcode is 7:1. I forgot it was that was the resolution until I actually dug up the specs.
God bless!

-C. Phillips

One of the most important things to understand is that the DRAGON sensor is completely different from the MX sensor. It is a new imager and it needs to be tested as thought it is a whole new camera, because, in essence it is.

The STH OLPF combination with the Dragon sensor in particular is geared toward skin tone/drama work and creates a base image which most resembles the Alexa (somewhat green tint). You are seeing the combination of a few things I described in an earlier post. STH, underexposure, windowed sensor, high frame rate and black shading calibration.

With the STH it's a great plan to rate (depending on the scene) lower ISO and hit the sensor hard (with light). This scene you present on STH (with a lot of high shadow area and wide contrast) could have been rated at 250-400 ISO and this would ensure that the you would not be seeing RED DOT shadow noise in the image. You can really push the dragon sensor with a lot of light before clipping with the STH installed and I would say ESPECIALLY in scenes where you want to get shadow detail.

I think the same shot on Standard would not be producing this effect. The shadow areas can get a bit mushy in lowlight.

We are so used to protecting highlights with the MX sensor and digging stuff out of the shadows, that if we expose this way on the STH filter, you end up with the kind of artifacting you are seeing here. IN my first days with the DRAGON STH combo, I had some similar exposure stuf happening, but I noticed it less because I always rated MX at 320 and did so with the DRAGON STH combo. I noticed great improvements, but others (who tend to use a base ISO of 800 we getting caught with RED dot noise due to under exposure. IF you rate the STH at 250-320 open until the image clips and wind it bac a half stop, you are golden.

The LLO and STANDARD OLPF's give you a much more similar image to the MX, with the benefits of the DRAGON sensor.

For 253 FPS you had to be in 2K and, just as a reminder, you are using less that 1.4 of the sensor resolution to capture your images (that is the trick to RED slomotion) it is not scaled but windowed, by exposing only 1/4 of the sensor, you can UP the framerates.

Honestly, 3K or 4K slow motion can yield much better results because you are not punching in so much.

See the samples in the posted in the thread I mentioned

David

 

[C. Phillips]

David,

These are good clips. I will try to lower the exposure to 320 and test again. Do you have any 200fps clips? I still would like to see the results at that frame rate/compression. However, these clips are Tremblant of the quality I was getting out of my Epic-X camera which I was perfectly fine with. Don't know what is going on with that Scarlet-W.

Sincerely,

 

[David Battistella]

Yes.

I think I have some stuff of honeybees. I'll post into here later, but after a lot of initial testing I tend to stay away from 2K altogether.


David

 

[Kris Tait]

C. Phillips,

I know you've gotten alot of heat over the last few days, but I do think you should ultimately be commended for starting this thread. Alot of useful information and enlightening discussion (borderline bullying aside) came out of the post. There's been a few very well-articulated bites of advice and information that I know I can carry over into my next shoot on these cameras. I normally rent. But I decided to pull the trigger on a red this time around because aside from the alexa and amira, the epic has always been our biggest and most common rental cost, so thought I would finally just try owning one. And these types of discussions are very useful for dp's who don't shoot exclusively on Red. Like someone posted earlier, it isn't in fact common knowledge that although certain features are advertised in the specs, they're not necessarily ideal or encouraged to use. So cheers for posting, putting up with the grief, and being constructively critical. Would be a bad place if a major manufacturer released a camera that had problems and no one dared to speak up about it. Though I don't see this as a problem with the camera, rather just limitations on certain shooting scenarios. But all the same, it's always best to speak up. So thanks for that.

Brody,

No problem fam! Glad it all makes sense now! That was the reason for me even starting this thread, to help people make informed decisions to let them know what they are getting into and help with their expectations. I had the Magnesium preordered at first but changed thinking the difference shouldn't be that bad. But, without seeing any examples out there, I made the wrong decision. People keep getting excited with the Raven "Carrion" video which is REALLY dope, but all of those shots are probably no higher than 48-60 fps which would maintain a pretty low compression at those frame rates, but we still didn't see what it would do beyond that.

Now, I am wondering if the Magnesium would be better. That $20,000 bump is just really high. If you get your Magnesium, I would love to see a quick clip at these frame rates.

Thank you for the feedback! Glad you feel better about your choice in purchase now!

Sincerely,

C. Phillips

 

[Kris Tait]

Thanks for taking the time to post David.

This is true however, that Red isn't entirely identical to film in this respect. The sensor (or gate) windowing is something unique to Red's HFR acquisition. So for people coming from Sony, Canon, Panasonic or Arri, it's important to understand what the limitations of overcranking on Red cameras are, and why this leads to inherently more noise at lower resolutions than what the might otherwise be used to. What I haven't researched yet is, what is the advantage of windowing the sensor as opposed to scaling, like sony for example. Anyone with knowledge or links are very welcome to chime in here. Thanks.

David,

The statement that RedCamera treats over crank exactly like film is not precisely true. I only point this out because you made a highlight of it, and it may need to be clarified to avoid further misunderstanding. With film, when you shoot high speed, the same quality and resolution of film stock simply passes through the gate faster. So you are getting many more frames of high quality image in the same time. The slo mo from film is therefore very good and clean. The way Red achieves high speed - because it is computational - is by gradually cropping the film stock (if you will) which is part of why we have these grain discussions. In truth, in order to process the temporal data the acuity of the digital film stock keeps being diminished through increased compression up to the limits of the internal boards.

I think most of what you map out here is super helpful. I just fear people are going to continue to misunderstand how Red does slow motion versus film.

 

[Brian Merlen]

If anything you may have talked me out of doing a raven deposit... I wanted it for low res hfr shots without taking the financial hit of taking my rental units out of rotation. But I may just wait for Arri to release a new sensor now instead since soon after that my Amira will be retired and realistically I'm too busy anyway currently to shoot much personal stuff. Or I'll see how much that new phantom mid range costs... Or move up to scarlet w... If need be for anamorphic...

ps what about hfr on scarlet w monochrome? How much noise and artifacts will be in that model? It would be cleaner I imagine?

 

[Daniel Reed]

David, thanks for making this thread.

 

[Scot Yount]

What I haven't researched yet is, what is the advantage of windowing the sensor as opposed to scaling, like sony for example. Anyone with knowledge or links are very welcome to chime in here. Thanks.

If you think of the data being written to your media card in volume/time, it is easy to see why RED allows you to window the sensor. For each frame at full resolution, every pixel on the sensor fires so to speak, and produces data. At 24fps at full resolution, call it one full bucket of data. If I want more frames per second, and my bucket is full, then I may choose to window the sensor, firing fewer pixels per second. I can then increase the frame rate right up to the point where I am again getting a full bucket. Compression plays a large role here as well. If my Scarlet-W writes 140MB/s to my mag, then that is the limit....RED is allowing me to choose how to use that data rate. Scaling by contrast, would fire every pixel every time, and then have to be scaled, further burning bandwidth and processor.

It is pretty simple really. Sony and Canon don't want to have to explain to you why they gave you the tools to make a bad picture, so they don't. RED let's you jump into the deep end expects you to find your own life preserver. That's what RC and no in-camera sharpening is all about really.....

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

FWIW, I have been happier with the results of shooting half the intended frame rate then using Twixtor/Chronos/etc to make interpolated frames in post. By only capturing at half the over crank, I am able to make better frames - less windowing, less compression - and find the interpolated frames built from these better frames good enough for a more pleasing result. Not effective on all material. YMMV.

Cheers - #19

 

[Brody_B]

Brody,

No problem fam! Glad it all makes sense now! That was the reason for me even starting this thread, to help people make informed decisions to let them know what they are getting into and help with their expectations. I had the Magnesium preordered at first but changed thinking the difference shouldn't be that bad. But, without seeing any examples out there, I made the wrong decision. People keep getting excited with the Raven "Carrion" video which is REALLY dope, but all of those shots are probably no higher than 48-60 fps which would maintain a pretty low compression at those frame rates, but we still didn't see what it would do beyond that.

Now, I am wondering if the Magnesium would be better. That $20,000 bump is just really high. If you get your Magnesium, I would love to see a quick clip at these frame rates.

Thank you for the feedback! Glad you feel better about your choice in purchase now!

Sincerely,

C. Phillips

For sure dude, I thought it was a little unfair for a few people on here to start by default blaming the users technique and experience as the problem. (in their defense they didnt have a chance to see any footage yet) But it looks like now, everyone is coming to terms and this has become a very useful thread for anyone looking to purchase either of these cameras, so thanks for heading that front.

I am waiting on a 7" red touch to ship so in about 2-3 weeks ill definitely post some r3ds!
Who woulda thought after waiting so long for the S-W id switch to weapon and now have to wait 3 weeks for the display hahaha oh well

 

[Dana Rice]

Kris,

I can try some tests when the time becomes available if you let me know some scenarios. But I must say, with the other example I provided with the Epic X, everything I shot was at 800 ISO, and lowering it didn't help the compression of it. I think noise is a fixed thing, and raising/lowering ISO affects exposure, and ultimately how visible that noise is. I could be wrong, but taking the noise out of it, the compression is still kind of yucky with these cameras at the high frame rates. Epic-X it looks great, even at 9:1 compression.

Any chance you could do any comparison tests between Epic-X and the new Scarlet at frame rates between 60 and 120 at the highest possible resolution/redcode available for each camera? I've been shooting on an Epic MX for the last couple years and I'm still getting wonderful results every single shoot. I generally shoot 5K WS, at RedCode 8:1 or 10:1... occasionally I'll go 12:1 or even higher if I need to conserve card space in a pinch, and even then I haven't been disappointed in the results. I've never had the need to go above 120 fps, so anything beyond that doesn't concern me. I am concerned now though that Scarlet-W might be an overall downgrade in image quality from an Epic MX. The price was so good to get the Dragon sensor plus newest body type that upgrading seemed like a no brainer, but now I'm having second thoughts. Still would love to get the new body, but not at the cost of image quality. Seeing some side by side comparisons could really help me decide if I should cancel my order or not.

Thanks

 

[Kris Tait]

Any chance you could do any comparison tests between Epic-X and the new Scarlet at frame rates between 60 and 120 at the highest possible resolution/redcode available for each camera? I've been shooting on an Epic MX for the last couple years and I'm still getting wonderful results every single shoot. I generally shoot 5K WS, at RedCode 8:1 or 10:1... occasionally I'll go 12:1 or even higher if I need to conserve card space in a pinch, and even then I haven't been disappointed in the results. I've never had the need to go above 120 fps, so anything beyond that doesn't concern me. I am concerned now though that Scarlet-W might be an overall downgrade in image quality from an Epic MX. The price was so good to get the Dragon sensor plus newest body type that upgrading seemed like a no brainer, but now I'm having second thoughts. Still would love to get the new body, but not at the cost of image quality. Seeing some side by side comparisons could really help me decide if I should cancel my order or not.

Thanks

i think under only very few shooting circumstances would the scarlet-w be a downgrade from a 4+ year old sensor. A hell of a lot has happened since then, both at Red and in technology as a whole. I would sooner rent an epic for those few occasions and have th dragon sensor regularly.

 

[Brody_B]

Much needed thread Dave, Thank you.

To all the Raven/S-W future buyers: Layed out in 1 simple sentence: They do NOT do well above 120fps.

The compression amount is too much with the limited processing capabilities of each of these brains. You can get decent 4k 120fps, which is slow enough looking for most stuff, but don't expect to get good results at any faster fps unless you purchase the weapon line. Thats a major part of why their so much more expensive.

On a side note, the 120fps 4k looks pretty good and with all the other RED qualities, it is a steal of a camera for both Raven and S-W brains.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

If anything you may have talked me out of doing a raven deposit... I wanted it for low res hfr shots without taking the financial hit of taking my rental units out of rotation. But I may just wait for Arri to release a new sensor now instead since soon after that my Amira will be retired and realistically I'm too busy anyway currently to shoot much personal stuff. Or I'll see how much that new phantom mid range costs... Or move up to scarlet w... If need be for anamorphic...

ps what about hfr on scarlet w monochrome? How much noise and artifacts will be in that model? It would be cleaner I imagine?

Did You check this out?


@ C. Phillips

With STH, I'd rate for ISO 100 @ 200 frps.

 

[Kris Tait]

I'm curious now about Raven after this discussion. 60-70% of my paid work is for high frame rate aqcuisition and have a Raven on preorder. Thinking perhaps for my situation a used epic x might be better suited for me, or will Raven (theoretically) be able to produce commercially viable images at 200-240fps with the right settings? Currently shooting a documentary about skateboarder Rune Glifberg aside from the commercial work, and this is another must for a minimum of 200fps. Let me know what you think, I may hold back on Raven until the wait does down and grab an epic x in the meantime.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Deposit paid... Lol I'm such a fan boy though I may go for scarlet w instead..

ps had an early top line Raven spot before but cancelled for CF funds... Now I'm super late instead but happy to think about it til fall and weigh options

 

[Brody_B]

I'm curious now about Raven after this discussion. 60-70% of my paid work is for high frame rate aqcuisition and have a Raven on preorder. Thinking perhaps for my situation a used epic x might be better suited for me, or will Raven (theoretically) be able to produce commercially viable images at 200-240fps with the right settings? Currently shooting a documentary about skateboarder Rune Glifberg aside from the commercial work, and this is another must for a minimum of 200fps. Let me know what you think, I may hold back on Raven until the wait does down and grab an epic x in the meantime.

Well from what ive seen, which has only been a few videos, id say no. too much compression artifacts to be commercially viable.

 

[Clayton Arnall]

Has there been any 3k WS 200 fps footage from scarlet-w or Raven posted? I'm curious how that looks down scaled to 1080p.