skintone

[David Battistella]

Jon,

with utmost respect because this is a great thread and I do not think it should be derailed.

Ketch, like every person, has his own way of doing things and has every right to accept or not accept work. Many people might agree with you and your post is logical.

Ketch has a particular idea of how he wants to do things, it might not seem logical to everyone, but he (and I am not speaking for him, I am speaking based on experience in this forum) is going to do things on his terms. He has stated this many times over.

im not saying your idea is bad or wrong, nor am I saying Ketch's choices are wrong, just that everyone has a right to get to where they are going by the path they personally choose for themselves .

History has proven that there are many roads to the end goal.

peace in this thread and throughout reduser.

david

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Yes, I don't want to be part of derailing this great thread, sorry. Back to great LUT's and other techniques to get the most out of the MX-sensor! Already seen a lot inspirational examples.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Well, nobody starts out as being David Lynch or Fincher. To think it's possible to start at the very top without a merrit and still being given full creative freedom is ludicrous. And I say this because the gig Toia suggested sounded like a perfect fit for you! If you are going to start shooting a feature this year, is not a commercial also a perfect place to test both the crew and techniques, and at the same time get payed for it? Money, techniques and team you can invest in your production...

Jon,

with utmost respect because this is a great thread and I do not think it should be derailed.

Ketch, like every person, has his own way of doing things and has every right to accept or not accept work. Many people might agree with you and your post is logical.

Ketch has a particular idea of how he wants to do things, it might not seem logical to everyone, but he (and I am not speaking for him, I am speaking based on experience in this forum) is going to do things on his terms. He has stated this many times over.

im not saying your idea is bad or wrong, nor am I saying Ketch's choices are wrong, just that everyone has a right to get to where they are going by the path they personally choose for themselves .

History has proven that there are many roads to the end goal.

peace in this thread and throughout reduser.

david

Jon,

you are absolutely right, however as David said (thanks for your support David) I see it very differently, were if I don't have absolute control of everything, I simply wan't do it, as my name is extremely important, and I prefer to have no credit then have bad credits, as far as experience and knowledge, don't be full, I do have enough to go around, and most then some out there, that have already made Movies, and it makes no difference to me if they have done movies and I don't, my time will come, till then I continue to have fun, and do it my way.

No disrespect to any one, but I have sacrificed an entire life for my dreams, the beauty of it, its that I have always been in control and it will be so till the end, if I fail its my fault, if I succeed its my doing...


Now, as you said... Back on topic.

 

[Mark Toia]

Hey Mark,

thanks for thinking of me, but I actually do very little to no work for any one, I concentrate on simply playing around and having fun with it, till its time to make my own movies, even so now I am working on a series of self produce Fashion Films, just to add to my show Reel, more for fun then for showcasing to clients really.
But no, I have not made a show reel, the few pieces I self produced in collaborative work are on my Ketch Rossi Vimeo page, aside form that, there is the Skydive Dubai piece I Directed and Shot, together with other fellow Filmmakers.
As for the Website it is at last about to get finally done as it should always have been, and there will be plenty of material in there soon, but not yet.
Either way, I again, appreciate you thinking of me, but if I was to do any commercial work, it would have to be for really big brands, and with absolute freedom of creation, and this is why I have done just about nothing so far... I am too picky, and my Love and Passion for what I do comes before money...
PM box is empty, its weird that gives a "PM Box Full" must be a system glitch...

Hi Ketch,
Just tried sending you another PM.. but saying full again ??? might be my end.

Regarding the job, thats no worries mate.. I won't hound you... I just thought you being a local Roman boy and like to shoot fashion you may have wanted to have a play.
This is a direct client gig.. no Agency.. The client lets you have freedom once they like your work and accept your visual treatment... I can't do the job because Im booked up solid for the next 3 months.
Anyways... if you change your mind and want to submit your works send me an email... or private PM.
I have a few people submitting, so all is cool if you dont want to.

Sorry to share on the forum, send me your email via PM.

Back to Skin Luts... sorry everyone.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Hi Ketch,
Just tried sending you another PM.. but saying full again ??? might be my end.

Regarding the job, thats no worries mate.. I won't hound you... I just thought you being a local Roman boy and like to shoot fashion you may have wanted to have a play.
This is a direct client gig.. no Agency.. The client lets you have freedom once they like your work and accept your visual treatment... I can't do the job because Im booked up solid for the next 3 months.
Anyways... if you change your mind and want to submit your works send me an email... or private PM.
I have a few people submitting, so all is cool if you dont want to.

Sorry to share on the forum, send me your email via PM.

Back to Skin Luts... sorry everyone.

Yea must be at your end...


Mark, again, I do truly appreciate it, and in this case I would love to talk to them, but fact is, I am not prepared to send Demo Reels and such, as I don't have one, only can link them to the Vimeo account, and the Skydive Dubai job I Directed and did the Cinematography of it as well, I have nothing else to show... For now...

If you wish to put them in contact with me, I'll talk to them with pleasure...

 

[Mark Toia]

Yea must be at your end... Mark, again, I do truly appreciate it, and in this case I would love to talk to them, but fact is, I am not prepared to send Demo Reels and such, as I don't have one, only can link them to the Vimeo account, and the Skydive Dubai job I Directed and did the Cinematography of it as well, I have nothing else to show... For now... If you wish to put them in contact with me, I'll talk to them with pleasure...

Could be a bit tough without them seeing your past work sorry mate. I doubt a phone call with them will suffice.
They are quite savy with there marketing and who they choose to shoot there clothing... They do need to see your past fashion cine / direction efforts.
Just get that reel together for next time mate. It truly helps me, help you.... :smiley:

PM me next time. or email me. Cheers Ketch.

 

[Mike P.]

@Toia; Hey Mark when you say you don't mind using mixed lighting with r3ds, how were you accommodating it in post? Did you mask the different light colours/sources and balance them?

In my experience, mixed lighting causes just as much problems in raw -- For example, if you saturate too much (admittedly, I like a lot of satch) tungsten goes wonky while daylight still holds without going hyper colour. Particularly true with skin tones.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Could be a bit tough without them seeing your past work sorry mate. I doubt a phone call with them will suffice.
They are quite savy with there marketing and who they choose to shoot there clothing... They do need to see your past fashion cine / direction efforts.
Just get that reel together for next time mate. It truly helps me, help you.... :smiley:

PM me next time. or email me. Cheers Ketch.

Not to worry Mark, the reason I don't have it in the first place yet, is that I will only do work I directly chose or ham chosen for, were form the start there is a connection with Major Brands or very special people/projects, as it was so for my first one with that for Dubai...

I just have the time to do only very little work, might as well chose it extremely well, and make it very special...

But thanks again buddy!!


Now at last finally bak on topic... Sorry guys...

 

[Dave Blackham]

We have been converting LUT's provided in this thread to work in Resolve 9. So after my failings to operate Resolve properly heres the workflow in a little more detail.

Info as cut and pasted from another post in this thread

Photoshop CS6:

Make sure to turn off your Photoshop colour management settings so the file isn't converted on import.
Import Resolve's Trim_LUT0.DPX file into Photoshop
Add a LUT Layer
Choose the .3DL LUT
Flatten the image
Save changes to the file

Go to Resolve

Import the ex photoshop file in to resolve and place in timeline,
highlight the clip,
go to the project settings menu which is found under the sprocket wheel bottom of screen.
Select 'Look Up Tables',
go to 'Generate LUT from Current Grade'.
Name the LUT and select Generate LUT.
The LUT then appears in the LUT menu.

Thats it.

And thanks for you guys posting the original LUT's here.

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

In my experience, mixed lighting causes just as much problems in raw -- For example, if you saturate too much (admittedly, I like a lot of satch) tungsten goes wonky while daylight still holds without going hyper colour. Particularly true with skin tones.

+1 def

 

[Mark Toia]

@Toia; Hey Mark when you say you don't mind using mixed lighting with r3ds, how were you accommodating it in post? Did you mask the different light colours/sources and balance them?

In my experience, mixed lighting causes just as much problems in raw -- For example, if you saturate too much (admittedly, I like a lot of satch) tungsten goes wonky while daylight still holds without going hyper colour. Particularly true with skin tones.

It does mate.. and yes we use masks and set new colour and tint settings for each area..
Sometimes if its a really bad shot, we grade multiple passes separately and combine them all together using masks.

The power of RAW saves the day Something i couldn't do with Film as the multiple light colours were burnt in and there forever... Same goes with shooting H264 or PRORES. XDCAM etc etc etc... With these codecs you are not in a RAW world were you can change these color temps easily.
Ill find a sample shot and will post soon what I'm talking about.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

It does mate.. and yes we use masks and set new colour and tint settings for each area..
Sometimes if its a really bad shot, we grade multiple passes separately and combine them all together using masks.

The power of RAW saves the day Something i couldn't do with Film as the multiple light colours were burnt in and there forever... Same goes with shooting H264 or PRORES. XDCAM etc etc etc... With these codecs you are not in a RAW world were you can change these color temps easily.
Ill find a sample shot and will post soon what I'm talking about.

Mixed lighting is the bane of my existence.

I recently shot for a cooking company here in Tokyo, and there were 3-4 different sources of lighting (Sunlight, fluro 6500-7000ish, tungsten, and something that almost looked purple but was energy saving). Thank god for the appropriate cutters and silks I ended up using, otherwise it would have been a disaster. Adding more HMI or tungsten just confused the situation more so I opted for fill (+ and -). In the grade it took, like you say, many many passes to actually get it looking okay. It is not something I don't look forward to doing again, and any tips to smooth out the process would be greatly, greatly appreciated. Fortunately it worked out well in the end, and the client was ultra happy, but on the other end was me with 5 layers and masks for each shot... eep

Film on the other hand has always handled mixed lighting much much better than any digital medium I have used. And from my few times shooting on Alexa, it handles it pretty decently too. This is my hope for dragon - that it handles mixed lighting superbly

Cheers from Tokes

Ivan

 

[Björn Benckert]

Mark, To me an r3d is as close as you can get to a 4k RAW 16bit LOG Cineon DPX film scan. Probably I think that you did not like film as much due to the possibility that you got to do the masks and selective color corrections and such usually onto a 8 or 10 bit transfer that usually past a very compressed sony tape deck. Then it very much behaves like an h.246 or such. But as I see it a Raw film scan is to me still what the R3D's looks up to in terms of colors.

There are of course benefits and drawbacks of having the image from a digital source, R3D's have compression and noise where as film has grain, image instability, scratches, dust, emulsion problems and not the least, cost issues involved.

To me Epic MX has passed light sensitivity of film by far and also the 5k to 4k down sample has great benefits. All together the epic as I see it was the fist viable option, better than film... And for the people that are still in doubt I think dragon will kind of end the discussions.

 

[Mark Toia]

How does prores from Alexa and 35 mm film do multiple colored lighting better than raw Ivan. ?
They are both color baked. ?
Shoot a Jpg with your stills camera (color baked)
Shoot a raw file with your stills camera. (Non color baked)

 

[Björn Benckert]

How does prores from Alexa and 35 mm film do multiple colored lighting better than raw Ivan. ?
They are both color baked. ?
Shoot a Jpg with your stills camera (color baked)
Shoot a raw file with your stills camera. (Non color baked)

The JPG is 8bit which cause huge problems and further more it's not LOG. So the comparison is not really valid as the colors of the JPG might go above the clipping for white and bellow clipping for black. Alexa is 10bit LOG, which is big difference from being a JPG. Still I'm not saying that I do not prefer a 16 bit r3d.

 

[Mark Toia]

The JPG is 8bit which cause huge problems and further more it's not LOG. So the comparison is not really valid as the colors of the JPG might go above the clipping for white and bellow clipping for black. Alexa is 10bit LOG, which is big difference from being a JPG. Still I'm not saying that I do not prefer a 16 bit r3d.

Understood... but I was using the JPG analogy as a color baked image comparison, not as gamma latitude comparison... hence 10bit over 8 bit.

I think we are going around in circles .

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

(snip) All CMOS cameras are inherently daylight balanced and therefore should be filtered in tungsten just like daylight balanced film (80A). With some cameras, IR (and sometimes UV) filtering is inadequate and additional filtering is also quite important. A good starting point for Red would be a Tiffen 80C/80D Hot Mirror.
Cheers.

I have had better results with a 1/4 CTB filter rather than the 80C or 80D. I believe it is because the unique MIRED shift that best suited crossing over film response essentially warps the relatively linear shift required to more equitably excite silicon. Suggest that anyone going down this road try both. YMMV.

Cheers - #19

 

[Ivan Kovax]

How does prores from Alexa and 35 mm film do multiple colored lighting better than raw Ivan. ?
They are both color baked. ?
Shoot a Jpg with your stills camera (color baked)
Shoot a raw file with your stills camera. (Non color baked)

Perhaps I should clarify the circumstances of those shoots a little more... skin handles mixed lighting better from my experience with film. The only way that I can describe it is that it is not as muddy as most digital cameras. Right out of processing. Sure there were still some problems, but it seems that digital highlights and exacerbates these more which made those on film seem minor.

In regards to the Alexa,only done three shoots. 2 prores, 1 raw. The mixed lighting situations were divided 1 prores shoot, 1 raw shoot. The Alexa still wasn't great in mixed lighting, but it did grade the mixed lighting situations far more easily than my Epic, I will give it that. Prores and arriraw didn't matter. Similar situations, all of them too...

The only explanation I have is that the colour filters on the sensors. This is a highly qualitative call on my behalf, as the only way to be entirely accurate is to shoot them all side by side in the same circumstances which never happened. FWIW.

Comments appreciated.

 

[Adrian Jebef]

Just out of curiosity, what is everyone looking at for monitors when evaluating these images?

I use a 2000 series 24" Cine-tal Cinemage on-set as my main reference monitor but I also have a 24" NEC MultiSync PA241W that I use as a cross-reference display. Both can be internally calibrated with simple probes. I run my camera signal to both and can double check subtle differences between the Class 1 and the prosumer display. Basically the Cine-tal shows true gamma ranges and beter color resolution (which really helps when trying to neutralize images with a lot of different color temperatures) but I find it invaluable to reference the same image looking at the NEC (as that picture will ultimately be a better representation of what is seen at home). I've used different displays (Cine-tal, Panasonic, Sony E250, Sony L231, Flanders, etc, etc.) throughout the years, I've even used different combos of different displays, and even up to 4 displays all on one cart on-set. I've also gone through high-end color probe calibrations again almost all of these displays attempting to get them to a technically exact match. 90% of the time it all ended in a mess. I've found my current setup the best balance between technical precision and the pragmatically flawed human eye.

 

[Gabriel Scindian]

I just got my Epic the other day. I shot footage at 3:1 compression and the impact was similar to a brick hitting my face. The quality was WOWSERS. I luhuhhuv this camera. I also shoot Hasselblad for fashion so I am particular about image quality.