Significant Update...

[Andy Roberts]

The way to look at it Petri is that the camera comes with a PL Mount, plain and simple. You're not paying extra, but rather paying ENORMOUSLY GIGANTICALLY less than any other camera with similar specs (are there any?). Jim and Co. don't owe you an explanation for a $2K mount when they have carried tens of millions in development costs... It was pretty cheeky for the original posters to ask for Canon mounts instead of PL mounts, although it makes sense from a buyers perspective. But it is downright rude to have a bad attitude about it when Jim says they may not be able to accommodate the request. These tools cost money and these tools make money, lots of it for those who know what they are doing. Thankfully, the price of entry is a lot lower because of Red, so let's not be rude and squabble over a few thousand dollars here or there.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

We all knew what the Epic-X package was when we signed up for it: PL mount included.

Absolutely. Jarred's "EPIC STAGE Clarification and update" post says of Stage 3.5:

"Cost is $28,000 less $17,500 to trade-in your RED ONE. Net price of $10,500 for 1x S35 MYSTERIUM-X brain with PL mount."

I'm fine with anything as long as the trade-in price mentioned above is not affected. RED is welcome to sell me an EPIC-X brain without any mounts at all at the announced trade-in price and all you'll hear from me is a whoop of unrestrained joy.

 

[Elsie N]

I for one completely respect Jim's point, even though I'm among those who have no need for the PL.

We all knew what the Epic-X package was when we signed up for it: PL mount included. I'd still take that in a second over the alternative (wait until later and pay more).

Red has been incredibly generous in the contents and pricing for this package. We have NOTHING to complain about. You get a mount that you don't need, which you can sell to someone else later when you get a Canon or Nikon mount - big deal. You also get to be at the head of the line for best camera in the world, at a substantial discount. Let's have some perspective here folks...

- Tim

As Gibby suggested, there could be an exchange fee. This way, there is no future competition for RED when they are selling Stage 4 cameras and no one is buying a mount from RED because of all the lower cost PL titanium mounts that people are offering to sell because they don't need them.

Not only that, but people may have to go the cheaper route and buy a 3rd party mount for Nikon and Canon.

 

[Brice Ansel]

As Gibby suggested, there could be an exchange fee. This way, there is no future competition for RED when they are selling Stage 4 cameras and no one is buying a mount from RED because of all the lower cost PL titanium mounts that people are offering to sell because they don't need them.
Not only that, but people may have to go the cheaper route and buy a 3rd party mount for Nikon and Canon.

What's the point to buy a second Pl mount when you already have one install on the camera you bought?
Regards

 

[Petri Teittinen]

You're not paying extra

If Stage 3.5 trade-in price is raised from the $10,500 then yes, I am paying extra.

Jim and Co. don't owe you an explanation for a $2K mount

Wasn't asking for one.

It was pretty cheeky for the original posters to ask for Canon mounts instead of PL mounts

I'm not asking for a replacement mount. In essence, I'm asking RED to manufacture one less PL mount.

let's not be rude and squabble over a few thousand dollars here or there.

For some people, even on this forum, "a few thousand dollars" is a lot of money.

 

[Elsie N]

What's the point to buy a second Pl mount when you already have one install on the camera you bought?
Regards

It was always my understanding that Stage 4 was body only. If I'm wrong, then I stand corrected.

edit: But if every camera comes with one, there will be no market for reselling one and it does truly become a $2000 paperweight. I would rather RED allow me to trade for their Nikon mount in my package, determine the profit they would have made on the PL mount, and send me a bill for that profit. That would save the waste of Titanium, cut down on my clutter ( a little bit) and save them time and effort to make it.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

We all need to take a breath and remember that this is only an issue *now*, as the camera is coming on the market still very much a work in progress, and the other mounts aren't yet ready for prime time.

This will be a non-issue six months or a year from now; you'll be able to order your EPIC and you'll be able to pick the mount or mounts you want when you order it. RED are very clear that the DSMC concept is the future and know that a lot of people will be using Canon and Nikon glass exclusively.

Mike

 

[Brice Ansel]

It was always my understanding that Stage 4 was body only.

I didn't know about that option, if you are right, then I stand corrected.

 

[Elsie N]

Absolutely. Jarred's "EPIC STAGE Clarification and update" post says of Stage 3.5:

"Cost is $28,000 less $17,500 to trade-in your RED ONE. Net price of $10,500 for 1x S35 MYSTERIUM-X brain with PL mount."

I'm fine with anything as long as the trade-in price mentioned above is not affected. RED is welcome to sell me an EPIC-X brain without any mounts at all at the announced trade-in price and all you'll hear from me is a whoop of unrestrained joy.

I'll take RED's side here in that the package should not be a reduction redeemable for cash. I'm only advocating for a mount exchange between types.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

I'll take RED's side here in that the package should not be a reduction redeemable for cash.

Sorry Elsie, I don't understand what you're saying here. Please elaborate for a non-native English speaker.

 

[Elsie N]

Sorry Elsie, I don't understand what you're saying here. Please elaborate for a non-native English speaker.

Just that I thought you were asking RED to reduce your camera price by $2000 and not send you a PL mount, or even a RED Nikon mount?

edit: apoligies for any previous syntax error.

 

[Louis Maddalena]

I think, if I did the math right.. that with these price increases the Epic-M no longer sells at a premium so if you're going to by a X when they're available to the general public you could not wait and buy a M now. This is because the price is not just going up on the body but on most of the accessories so buying a M package now might be a little more but it looks as if its pretty darn close in price... which is now making it harder for me to resist!

 

[Petri Teittinen]

Just that I thought you were asking RED to reduce your camera price by $2000 and not send you a PL mount, or even a RED Nikon mount?

No, no! My apologies if I was unclear. I'm saying that I'm fine with paying the original trade-in price of $10,500 -- even if that meant I would receive a mount-less EPIC-X.

All RED would need to do is manufacture one less titanium PL mount. They'd still get the same $10,500 from me.

(And before someone wonders what use is a mount-less EPIC-X... I have Allstar's A-mount and he should have the EPIC mounting plate ready for it in August.)

 

[Petri Teittinen]

I think, if I did the math right.. that with these price increases the Epic-M no longer sells at a premium so if you're going to by a X when they're available to the general public you could not wait and buy a M now.

I calculated there is still a small premium... but if I had $58,000 to spare I would buy the EPIC-M in an instant, make no bones about it. However, right now I'm lucky to spare $58 for a tank of gasoline so, um, yeah.

 

[Elsie N]

No, no! My apologies if I was unclear. I'm saying that I'm fine with paying the original trade-in price of $10,500 -- even if that meant I would receive a mount-less EPIC-X.

All RED would need to do is manufacture one less titanium PL mount. They'd still get the same $10,500 from me.

(And before someone wonders what use is a mount-less EPIC-X... I have Allstar's A-mount and he should have the EPIC mounting plate ready for it in August.)

sorry, I undermistood. (drat! darned lexdisia)

 

[Elsie N]

I calculated there is still a small premium... but if I had $58,000 to spare I would buy the EPIC-M in an instant, make no bones about it. However, right now I'm lucky to spare $58 for a tank of gasoline so, um, yeah.

and +1

edit: where are you finding gas that cheap?

 

[Petri Teittinen]

sorry, I undermistood. (drat! darned lexdisia)

No worries. This happens!

where are you finding gas that cheap?

My car has a very small fuel tank

 

[Jason Beckwith]

The mount whining is getting a little loud...

There haven't really been any surprises regarding the X package. Everyone should have been budgeting an extra $500 for the canon or nikon mount. It's the ONLY price increase that will affect those ready to buy. It shouldn't even be a surprise that it's not ready to ship with Epic, as Red has been very clear about where they've been in production all this time.

I know that Jim and all give a lot more weight to negative posts, than positive. I've seen it time and again on the board. 20 people will post "awesome!", 1 will post "bummer" and the tone of the thread turns instantly. I really think that they are doing their best to please everyone, and you can easily tell that Jim takes this way too personally, IMHO.

The idea of swapping out the mount was proposed by the customers, and was addressed by Red quickly and honestly. They have even offered to create a whole new product, the Nikon dumb mount, to cater to their clients. it really seems that they have bent over backward on all this stuff.

Each of us has different goals and dreams for their new camera. A few mine won't be ready when Epic ships. I'd like to use the red mote pro to wirelessly pull focus on a Nikon lens while the Epic is on my cheap ass jib. I'd like to give the director and AD an iPad that they can wirelessly view on so that I don't have to be tethered to video village. I'd love a two channel wireless audio receiver module that will fit in line on the camera. I know these things will come, and I just have to be patient.

Just to let you know where I'm at, I'm not a rich man. I work a crazy amount of hours doing corporate video, and then take projects that I find interesting in my spare time. I stretched to get the Red One, and I'll be stretching again to get a shootable kit for Epic. I have a mortgage and two kids, so I'm just barely in the game. I was at NAB in '06, and couldn't afford the Red One. I had to save for 2 years to get one in '08. I got to watch early adopters upgrade their camera ro M-X while i waited, and rented because just the M wasn't good enough for my clients. I continue to lose business as clients request the Epic-M, that I cannot afford. Every cost increase makes my budget look like one of those puzzles where one piece is missing and the squares have to be moved around to complete the picture. I have to figure out what to buy and when. At this point, I'd much rather that they get the camera to me with a PL mount, than make sure that everything is ready when they ship.

While I meet the Red team every year at NAB, I'm sure that I'm entirely forgettable, as I'm not on high profile cinema or fashion shoots. This year, the Feeling at the booth was one of frustration. In every conversation, the Red employees were at least as bummed as the customers in regards to camera delivery. The fact that Jim is honoring his word, and not passing along the added cost of equipment is very admirable.

If you haven't used the extra time to save up for the gear that you will need, that's on you. An extra fifteen hundred shouldn't break your budget. The Epic is the big league camera, and prices reflect that. Stretch for the mount you need, and sell your PL mount to the guy that wants to use 16mm PL mount glass on an interchangeable Scarlett.

We've all been waiting an awful long time, and if you go back to the first post in this thread and do a little math, it's pretty obvious how much we're getting at their expense. Literally. I see the "horses for courses" cliche being posted a lot, I'd like to remind you that there's another cliche that involves a "gift horse".

 

[AnthonyFlores]

The Ultra Prime 8R does indeed cover the full 5K image. We sold one to a client recently for his new EPIC and tested it with him. Really quite a sight.

I find the turn of this thread interesting and spells out one of the difficulties in offering a modular camera system. People seem to think it is entirely modular -- so that every little bit should be a choice of the end users. Part of the business model for any manufacturer is to forecast how many parts to make of given items for a given period. We all know that RED has struggled with this, in no small part to the complications of these parts and to issues with their subcontractors. If in the next six months RED plans to ship say 2000 cameras (I'm just making up a number here), then they have already long ago contracted to have 2000 titanium PL mounts built. If they opened it up to allow people not to take the mount then they could quickly get left with a large pile of very expensive mounts on a shelf, which was not part of the financial plan.

You're not paying for a $2000 paperweight. You're buying a camera with an included mount and then choosing not to use it. If you bought a $20,000 car as a pile of individual parts from the manufacturer, it would proaly cost you $200,000. Maybe that will help you feel better about an unused PL mount.

Would you buy a car but tell the dealer, "I don't have any kids so I don't need the rear seats. I see you make them removeable so people can carry lots of cargo and that's what I'd like to do. I see that the catalog lists replacement seats for $1000. Can I not take the seats and you drop $1000 off the car?"

No.

Amen, Brother Mitch! Preach it!

 

[Johnny Friday]

I LOVE my Titanium paperweight....in fact it's on my desk holding down a stack of pesos.....