Setting up GROUP BUY for batteries!

[Vinny Duwe]

Posted. Thank Adam!

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Hey Curt;
Thanks for putting this together,
Question:
According to there web https://www.paguk.com/catalog/84

PAG link PL96e Batteries and Micro Charger Package;
2 batteries and 1 charger is USD$ 964.17 (598 GBP)

And REDuser discount;
2 batteries and 1 charger is USD$ 1000

I was expecting above PAG link Package to be 20% less for REDusers (ship from US)

Am I missing some thing?

Good point. I am curious as well. :-(

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Hey Curt;
Thanks for putting this together,
Question:
According to there web https://www.paguk.com/catalog/84

PAG link PL96e Batteries and Micro Charger Package;
2 batteries and 1 charger is USD$ 964.17 (598 GBP)

And REDuser discount;
2 batteries and 1 charger is USD$ 1000

I was expecting above PAG link Package to be 20% less for REDusers (ship from US)

Am I missing some thing?

I was wondering this as well...With those prices I really won't even consider placing an order. Like Vinny said price wise this doesn't really hit where I was expecting it would....

Thanks for the offer on this Curt, but I still feel it is way to high of a price even discounted. I thought they'd be a bit less.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Curt,
you do lots for the community and a big thanks.......i'm holding off for now since I also had expectations of better pricing. If things change, please let me know or i'll do the same.

 

[Curt Pair]

Hey Curt;
Thanks for putting this together,
Question:
According to there web https://www.paguk.com/catalog/84

PAG link PL96e Batteries and Micro Charger Package;
2 batteries and 1 charger is USD$ 964.17 (598 GBP)

And REDuser discount;
2 batteries and 1 charger is USD$ 1000

I was expecting above PAG link Package to be 20% less for REDusers (ship from US)

Am I missing some thing?

Kwan,

I understand how you can come to that conclusion... however, I do believe you are indeed missing something. It's the VAT, or "Value Added Tax." Many European companies charge a tax to the end consumer and NOT the manufacturer for goods. Like being "tax exempt" in the States, they provide prices with and without VAT. I have no idea on how someone would qualify to purchase without paying VAT... so I'm going to assume the majority of folks do have to pay that tax. So for either of us to purchase this product, especially being foreigners, we will indeed have to pay that VAT in addition to the price. PAG then has to provide the difference (20% in this case) to their government. The price with the VAT is £717.60. I too Googled the exchange rate and came up with $1157.85. I can also attest that just because Google or any bank has a "published rate" on the British pound to US Dollar for a specific day, don't count on your credit card company agreeing with them. (I've learned that lesson the hard way in my international travels over the years... I USED to pay for everything by credit card... but the credit card companies provide a much more favorable rate to themselves in terms of conversion, than they do for their customers. i.e. IT NEVER MATCHES! On nearly every outing I lost money in the process. So now I pay for everything in the local currency with cash.)

Now the next thing you need to know is that when shipping goods from one country to another there are customs fees and such. I'm not a customs broker, so I have no idea how these fees are created, but I do know they exist. The US Pag distributor handles the fees when they bring the batteries into the country.

I have alpha/beta/charlie tested new equipment for various companies for years. Unfortunately many of the manufacturers out there have told me "you guys pay more for stuff in the States because this is where the majority of this stuff is sold." I also feel that the global economy has a huge impact on pricing as well. I was blown away last year when I was in Germany, and walked in off the street to a vendor's establishment... Arri lights, Sachtler Tripods and Chrosziel products were MUCH cheaper in that store than what we pay in the States (and Sachtler is now a US based company being owned by Vitec!).

I have provided the US sale price for the batteries. This is what the US distributor tells me all outlets will charge. They are providing pricing to me based on a volume discount.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

Thanks,

Curt

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Curt - I am not 100% sure but I don't believe US buyers have to pay VAT. Somewhat relevant, I have purchased several things from a Turkish company and shipping, customs, VAT nor anything else was an issue. As I posted earlier in this thread, I very much appreciate the work you have done to bring this together but it honestly seems like PAG isn't stepping up. I guess I am in the group who is somewhat "underwhelmed" by the discount. :-(

BTW - my exchange rate calc was identical to Kwan's. :huh:

EDIT: And, as far as exchange rate goes, I assume you wouldn't be making this purchase with a credit card so the exchange rate for this transaction, negotiated directly with PAG, should be much more favorable than a credit card transaction. No?

 

[Glen Powell]

When you go through the PAG UK check-out VAT is removed because it's being Shipped outside the UK (same as I don't have to charge HST to my American Clients). Total for two bats with charger - including shipping is just under $1,000 Canadian (so just over $1,000 US).

Not sure what the import duty would be on the order coming into Canada - but it would be the same as coming in from the States, since country of origin is still the UK.

So the deal is cheaper than ordering from Manios (sp?) or B&H, but I could order direct from PAG UK and get the same deal….

 

[Curt Pair]

Please allow me to respond to a few claims made here...

First, I'm NOT an employee of PAG. I'm a working DP. Correction, I'm a DP who travels a ton just to work! I've used Anton Bauer batteries since first starting in the business in 1991. They make a terrific product. However, with the modular aspects of today's best cameras, weight can increase in a hurry. As I get older that is a huge factor for me, as a considerable portion of my work involves hand held shots.

When I shoot at home, I use Dionic 160 batteries. They're terrific. They last quite a long time, and they're fairly lightweight for their amp hour capacities. As many of you are well aware, it's quite difficult to travel with these batteries due to Federal and International regulations. Therefore, I have purchased Hytron batteries to use mainly when I'm out of town. There are no restrictions with these, and I can check them as luggage if I need to. It is true that if I wanted, I can carry on an unlimited number of Dionic 90 batteries in my carry on luggage, however, I just don't find that these last very long mounted on a camera, powering additional items like monitors, scopes, wireless audio interfaces, off board recorders, digital motors, zoom controls, etc. For me, it boils down to the watt hour capacity of these batteries... I use Dionic 90s on monitors, and sometimes LED panels.

I go to trade shows looking for solutions to my current problems. This year that goal was to find a mattebox that fit my needs, better LEDs, and to see what battery options were out there. This is how I stumbled into the PAGlink batteries. I talked them into sending me some to try out. I loved them. I wanted to share my enthusiasm and therefore created the video review.

To my comrades in Red!

I'm like many of you... I thought the price was a bit steep too, but the batteries offered so many features others didn't, I thought it was worth it. I'd seen others facilitate "group buys" so I thought I'd give it a shot! This way, if the price came down I could buy more.

I realize that some think the price is still too high. Further I've seen other battery manufacturer representatives knock the product. Let me start by saying I've been a LOYAL customer of Anton Bauer for 20+ years. I'm a loyal IDX customer (I use their NP1's for all of our audio gear.) And, believe it or not... I'm a loyal SWIT battery user too! (We use their batteries in our EX1r and our EX3, as they are the ONLY company that make that sized battery with a D-tap. They are terrific!) In all honesty, I see the value of nearly all of the larger battery manufacturers out there. I use their products and have been pleased with the results.

I think if we're truly going to compare apples to apples... it should be apples to apples and NOT apples to pineapples. The two aren't the same even though the word "apple" is in both! I want to point out a few features others may be missing or overlooking. For starters, there is no other battery that really competes with the PAGlink, period. It truly is in a class all its own. IDX would be the company with a product that is close, as they have a battery that has the capability to link to another battery for greater watt hour performance. They have the IDX E-HL9, which is the closest in total feature set to the PAGlink PL96e. If you compare the specs, the IDX E-HL9 is 88 watt hours compared to PAG's 96. Further, if you check the price on B&H (which many generally consider the lowest price in the States) you'll see it's actually MORE expensive than the PAGlink deal we're getting! http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/632840-REG/IDX_E_HL9_E_HL9_Lithium_Ion_V_Mount.html It's $483 per battery. Although the IDX does have a linking feature, it maxes out with two batteries, giving you a total of 176 watt hours. If you link two PAGlink's together you start with 196 watt hours and can easily and safely jump to 288 watt hours and beyond, if you want or need to!

When I was the Director of Photography for three years on America's Most Wanted, we ran with so much stuff on the camera, it actually became ridiculous! For our "crime recreations" we used a Sony F800 with a zoom controller, a Leader 5330 Scope, a Zaxcom, a Denecke SB-T tri-level sync, Wevi wireless video, Script boy, & zoom and/or focus motors (for the Zeiss Digi Zooms). Also add into the mix two to three 17" monitors! I was responsible to power those as the DP too! (BTW: this didn't include if we used LEDs or a jib... somehow those power needs fell to my responsibility!) This was just to shoot a "scripted" recreation piece. If the host of the show was involved, we added a teleprompter to the front of the camera too... and yup, I was expected to power it. In short, we used about 16-20 batteries per day! (Hytrons at the time). I typically brought a four position charger and 2-two position chargers. We couldn't charge fast enough! Therefore I bought two TM4 simulataneous four position chargers. If I took ALL FIVE chargers into the field... we had a chance to stay on top of the power situation. The real pain was to pack and ship all of those chargers! Don't even get me started on how much my hotel room lit up at night! I felt I was at a concert! If I didn't take all those chargers... then I would have to get up in the middle of the night and change batteries so that we were ready to go the next day.

When I first used the PL-16 charger, it blew my mind! I couldn't believe I could charge up to 16 batteries overnight on the same two position charger! That was awesome! So if we compare the ability of this charger to anything else out there... you'll find you can't! No other company has anything like this! So again, the PAGlink stands alone in a class by itself. PAG does have a four position fast charger (The Cube), that works just like Anton Bauer TM4; it will bring four batteries to 80% charge in three hours and then trickle charge until they reach 100%. (The TM4 is exactly the same!) Having the ability to charge PAGlinks on ANY "reputable" V-mount charger is an added bonus. As an Anton Bauer user... I've only had one option, so this is a welcome change!

I like the fact that the PAGlink batteries have the ability to communicate with nearly all of the modern camera manufacturers out there and provide data in the viewfinder in terms of the amount of power left. PAGlinks work with Sony, Panasonic, and Red to name a few. Further if linked, the collective power status is what is shown.

A single PAGlink will power an Epic/Scarlet for nearly 2 hours. When you start stacking... you're doubling the time for each battery, provided you're not adding other devices. That is terrific news.

Another feature that PAG has provided that isn't available with any other manufacturer is the PowerHub. It comes with FOUR D-taps and a USB connector. I've used Anton Bauer for years, and to operate multiple devices I've bought "Multi-D-Tap" adapters. What's more, you can currently replace the D-tap module on the PowerHub with Hirose and PP90, if your needs call for that. I understand Lemo and possibly Fischer are in the works! Once again... this is a first and only feature from a battery manufacturer.

For a traveling DP... the absolute best news is that PAGlinks are United Nations and International Air Transport Association approved to travel on commercial aircraft with no quantity restrictions! I can say that we've done this, and it works! I've traveled to Washington State, California, Utah, Florida, Alabama, Costa Rica and Canada, (since having the batteries) and carried the 6 we have on board. We had the printed certificate with us, and had absolutely NO ISSUES in any airport. I was stunned. I had them all stacked together (for the sake of keeping them compact), which you're not supposed to do... and still met no interference... that certificate and the stickers on the batteries themselves proved invaluable! I could have carried on more... I just didn't own any more!

I think when you look at the batteries fairly and objectively, you'll see there isn't another battery or system in the same league! They may cost more than the batteries one currently uses, but can those batteries do the same things? Do you want or need these features? Are you willing to pay for them? In the case of the linking feature... only one other compares and at the price point we have for this group buy, we come in under the competitors price! We are acquiring a Miezler Module, and that requires V-mount batteries, which is another reason I am slowly converting to a V-mount based system. I'll probably keep half of my Anton Bauers for all of my other cameras and accessories. I do understand those needing to switch, it's not just the batteries, but the entire system! I'm in the same boat, but I think the feature set of the PAGlink system is worth it!

I am proceeding with the "group buy." I've had many contact me and say they realize the value and feature set they are getting. If you're interested... feel free to contact me by PM, email, or telephone.

Thanks to those who are participating. I am quite confident these batteries will meet your expectations, if not exceed them.

Regards,

Curt

 

[Curt Pair]

Curt - I am not 100% sure but I don't believe US buyers have to pay VAT. Somewhat relevant, I have purchased several things from a Turkish company and shipping, customs, VAT nor anything else was an issue. As I posted earlier in this thread, I very much appreciate the work you have done to bring this together but it honestly seems like PAG isn't stepping up. I guess I am in the group who is somewhat "underwhelmed" by the discount. :-(

BTW - my exchange rate calc was identical to Kwan's. :huh:

EDIT: And, as far as exchange rate goes, I assume you wouldn't be making this purchase with a credit card so the exchange rate for this transaction, negotiated directly with PAG, should be much more favorable than a credit card transaction. No?

Actually my payment to Manios Digital is by credit card, which I'll have to add 4%. I have the option to do a bank transfer, but there is a fee there as well...

 

[Kwan Khan]

Kwan,

I understand how you can come to that conclusion... however, I do believe you are indeed missing something. It's the VAT, or "Value Added Tax." Many European companies charge a tax to the end consumer and NOT the manufacturer for goods. Like being "tax exempt" in the States, they provide prices with and without VAT. I have no idea on how someone would qualify to purchase without paying VAT... so I'm going to assume the majority of folks do have to pay that tax. So for either of us to purchase this product, especially being foreigners, we will indeed have to pay that VAT in addition to the price. PAG then has to provide the difference (20% in this case) to their government. The price with the VAT is £717.60. I too Googled the exchange rate and came up with $1157.85. I can also attest that just because Google or any bank has a "published rate" on the British pound to US Dollar for a specific day, don't count on your credit card company agreeing with them. (I've learned that lesson the hard way in my international travels over the years... I USED to pay for everything by credit card... but the credit card companies provide a much more favorable rate to themselves in terms of conversion, than they do for their customers. i.e. IT NEVER MATCHES! On nearly every outing I lost money in the process. So now I pay for everything in the local currency with cash.)

Now the next thing you need to know is that when shipping goods from one country to another there are customs fees and such. I'm not a customs broker, so I have no idea how these fees are created, but I do know they exist. The US Pag distributor handles the fees when they bring the batteries into the country.

I have alpha/beta/charlie tested new equipment for various companies for years. Unfortunately many of the manufacturers out there have told me "you guys pay more for stuff in the States because this is where the majority of this stuff is sold." I also feel that the global economy has a huge impact on pricing as well. I was blown away last year when I was in Germany, and walked in off the street to a vendor's establishment... Arri lights, Sachtler Tripods and Chrosziel products were MUCH cheaper in that store than what we pay in the States (and Sachtler is now a US based company being owned by Vitec!).

I have provided the US sale price for the batteries. This is what the US distributor tells me all outlets will charge. They are providing pricing to me based on a volume discount.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

Thanks,

Curt

Thanks for complete detail Curt, I can't debat on this (Because you aGoodfella').

But I will highly request you to send PAG following link to check how we REDUSER do successful GROUPBUYs.
Please don't forget to let them know that pay attention on Page 13 and after..

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?78204-GROUP-BUY-SQUARE-BOUNCE-REFLECTOR

Page 13
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?78204-GROUP-BUY-SQUARE-BOUNCE-REFLECTOR/page13


And This is what my total amount is on their web store (no VAT or any other hidden charges);

Total Amount ........ 598.00 (US$ 964.00)
Shipping to NYC .... 00044.18 (US$ 71.22)

Offer something like: Above and -20% or more Reduser Groupbuy discount + US shipping rate (sounds fair seeing as how many people are down to buy) and I'll buy 2 sets now.

Otherwise - all the best with the product and I look forward to buying it when I need it.


We are red users. Use to the Red service which is probably the best service in the world.
I understand their products are extremely well engineered and well designed. But, imagine PAGlink batteries 200+ professional shoots every week with rotating crews....a ton of exposure in the professional film world that lasts for months.

I suggest PAGlink re-consider their terms and offer a normal group buy, where the exact price is known at checkout not an surprising VAT discusion.

 

[Johnny Friday]

I'd have to agree...Pag is a big company shipping worldwide and we/you should expect nothing but a sound and professional service. It is after all a global community, VAT is not normally collected on any out of country sales....been buying from europe for a while and VAT is never collected when proper customs declarations are made. But that all said, i find it hard to believe that pag cannot come up with a known price based on their shipping all over the world and specifically to USA ...B&H for example. Surely they know what customs duties they pay. But i also went to their site a few days ago to do a checkout and came up with similar results. I find it rather discouraging that they have not offered you a worthy discount as i expect they would for any reseller. I'm certainly not questioning the batteries and what they offer, merely what Pag offered to you based on a large 200+ battery buy...Just seems a waste of your time to engage in that discussion based on their numbers.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Actually my payment to Manios Digital is by credit card, which I'll have to add 4%. I have the option to do a bank transfer, but there is a fee there as well...

Of course, that is your business. Too bad you have to give up 20% of the discount. :-(

 

[Terry VerHaar]

As those have said before me, I think the product is great and I am glad you put them on my radar screen. I am not knocking the product not have I put stock in those that are. And, I have gone on record thanking you for your effort - I sure as hell didn't take the time to do something as entangled as this!

So, while the product seems excellent, the discount pricing is just OK. I do believe that PAG failed you in that regard. It seemed to me like there were dozens of potential unit sales based on a reasonably good discount; much more than 20, I would have thought. In the end, the discount just isn't enough of an incentive to make me want to move now. I am sure your purchaser will be happy.

 

[Curt Pair]

I just checked out the other dealers pricing:

PL96e lThis is for $519!
PL96T is $649!
16L Charger: This is $659.
Cube Charge: $645.95

This is from a VERY reputable US dealer.

As our original pricing stands:
$425 PL96e Battery ~ This is a 19% discount off the lowest price,
$535 PL96T Battery ~ This is a 18% discount off the lowest price
$575 PL 16 Charger ~ This is a 12% discount off the lowest price
$575 PAG Cube Charger ~ This is a 11% discount OFF the lowest price
$150 PowerHub
$150 Micro Charger

In speaking with PAG just now... they are reminding me if you purchase, as a customer NOT in Europe, from their website, that what ever method you ship... Let's say Fed Ex... the shipping company will charge importation taxes and duties! I know that when I bought my Bright Tangerine Mattebox from London... It ended up costing me an additional $450, that I was NOT counting on just to get the product from Fed Ex. Those were "duty" fees according to Fed Ex.

So I've been FIGHTING and FIGHTING to get our group the best pricing possible! I've explained our thoughts and concerns. I've explained that this could mean as many as 200 more batteries with NEW customers on the streets around the globe! Trust me! They're listening! To that end, they've agreed to lower our "dealer" price to BELOW what they sell these products to many dealers... (drum roll please!)

That being said PAG has adjusted their pricing and I think this is spectacular!
$399 PL96e Battery ~ This is a 24% reduction from the lowest price
$500 PL96T Battery ~ This is a 23% reduction from the lowest price
$545 PL 16 Charger ~ This is an 18% reduction from the lowest price
$545 Cube Charger ~ This ia a 16% reduction from the lowest price
$150 PowerHub
$150 Micro Charger

The PowerHub and Micro Charger will not change.

The "margins" on these products just aren't what we all think! This will be the lowest price offered. PAG is offering us these prices FAR BELOW even the largest dealers pricing in the US, as a one time group purchase.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Sounding better Curt...what does all this mean now. $399 FOB LA for a 96e? I'm assuming there's going to be one large order and all freighted to LA....so once there what is are actual price sitting in LA and then we pay freight from LA to "X" ? Or are these the prices landed in LA ?

Edit: i think i see the answer in your post....sorry for the questions...i see the discounts %'s are based against B&H's prices....i'm assuming this therefore means just that...prices landed in usa and include freight & customs to LA....please correct me if i'm wrong. Based on that i'm in....Always the questions of the unknown that shake us...as you stated in your fed-ex problem, which i experienced yesterday having a disk from San Diego sent to me in Mexico with a declared value of $100usd via ups and importation fees to mexico cost me $40usd. Had i known, i would not have had it sent.

 

[Josef Gatti]

Second that from Johnny. Curt, I send you a PM about where I stand about pricing. If I can keep the total cost (2x PL96e + micro charger) including shipping under 1k, I'd be a very happy buyer. The Australian Government will want 10% of the total once it arrives here, if it's over that 1k mark

 

[Kwan Khan]

Thanks again Curt,

And again I'm so sorry, But if PAG forcing you to compare this Groupbuy to B And H. Please let them know, this sounds more like BAIT AND SWITCH Now (request them.. "please aviod").

We should only compare them to their own web offer , which is clearly this (for Two PAGlink PL96e Batteries and One Micro Charger Package)

Total Amount ........ 598.00 (US$ 964.00)
Shipping to NYC .... 00044.18 (US$ 71.22)

(I can buy any time directly from them and no extra charge, VAT or gimmick)

I request you curt, Please make them do better (for all REDUSERs) as following;

Again above price they are offering for every customer in US and if -20% off above price + US shipping rate.

Edit...

 

[Curt Pair]

Sounding better Curt...what does all this mean now. $399 FOB LA for a 96e? I'm assuming there's going to be one large order and all freighted to LA....so once there what is are actual price sitting in LA and then we pay freight from LA to "X" ? Or are these the prices landed in LA ?

Edit: i think i see the answer in your post....sorry for the questions...i see the discounts %'s are based against B&H's prices....i'm assuming this therefore means just that...prices landed in usa and include freight & customs to LA....please correct me if i'm wrong. Based on that i'm in....Always the questions of the unknown that shake us...as you stated in your fed-ex problem, which i experienced yesterday having a disk from San Diego sent to me in Mexico with a declared value of $100usd via ups and importation fees to mexico cost me $40usd. Had i known, i would not have had it sent.

Johnny,

My La Paz friend! I "hope" (I'm sure you get it!) you're doing well!

The PRICES are the prices you pay! The $399 price includes all importation and duties! These prices are as if you went into a brick and mortal and paid for them... I based the prices "against" a large reputable dealer so that folks would understand what kind of a deal we're all getting. (We're actually getting BETTER PRICING than most dealers for this one time group buy! That's hard to do, but they are willing to do this once!

If one tried to purchase these straight from the PAG UK website, and they lived in North America, they can bet on some heavy importation taxes and other duties to be assessed by the shipping companies. I'm assured by PAG that the price wouldn't be as low as these customers are speculating. I'm told shipping alone, with all the duties could run as high as $250 (possibly more) for the two PL95e and micro charger kit. The other thing is that if something goes wrong with one of the products, the owner must ship the product back to PAG directly in the UK for service. If you go through a reputable dealer in the USA, they have a staff on hand to assist you with issues that pop up, however slim that chance happens.

If you pick up yoru order from Manios Digital in Los Angeles, I would assume there are no shipping charges (I'm double checking on that!). There will be sales tax for California and Arizona residents.

If the batteries are shipped elsewhere in the United States (from LA), there will be a shipping and handling fee assessed by PAG USA. They've worked out some flat fees no matter the destination in the US. Those fees are based upon weight... i.e. how many batteries or a combo of batteries/chargers are purchased. If you're outside the US... We'll address those situations., independently.

Knowing that we were already getting a fairly good deal, I was pleased. I was able to battle it out a bit more and secured a better deal than even the largest of vendors will receive! (Honestly, we're encroaching on the distributor's price!) Personally, I'm ecstatic! Basically PAG has now lowered the price to compete with Dionic 90s. It's kind of an unfair comparison on every level but the price. The PAGlinks have a much deeper feature set.

For those of you who have already placed your orders, have no fear! The new pricing will be in effect on your orders as well; we have NOT billed any credit cards at this point.

So that we're all clear, the pricing is as follows:

$399 PL96e Battery
$500 PL96T Battery
$545 PL 16 Charger
$545 Cube Charger
$150 PowerHub
$150 Micro Charger

California and Arizona residents will pay sales tax accordingly.

Shipping and handling fees will apply to those orders not picked up in Los Angeles at the PAG USA distributor.

I apologize for any confusion. I hope this is presented in a clear manner for everyone.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

At these new prices I am leaning back into the deal. Curt, should we PM you the specifics? And, what do we know about mounting options? On our own for that or...?

Again, thanks.

 

[Kwan Khan]

I'm assured by PAG that the price wouldn't be as low as these customers are speculating. I'm told shipping alone, with all the duties could run as high as $250 (possibly more) for the two PL95e and micro charger kit..

Hummm.... Interesting.... Its not mention on their site

Thank again for detail.