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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Secret Sauce.....

Really? More like $450, I bet.. plus $75 in fuel..
Generators are around $1/amp week in rentals here..
 
I remember when this all started - Our Red M responded really well to using 80x filters to feed the blue channel. It seemed to help a lot - especially on green screen using tungsten sources. The Epic I think takes wonderful images in a wide gamut of color temperatures - I think the color science has also improved and is crazy good. I can get very nice images when working in tungsten light - there seems to be something in my mind about feeding the blue channel enough so there is a much "fatter negative".
 
Rather than using an 80C or similar filter that was engineered for a specific MIRED shift best suited to film stocks I prefer a 1/4 CTB Schneider glass filter on camera. The light loss is less and the spectral distribution alteration more limited. It's not a huge difference, but the OP was seeking optimal results.

FWIW I have found that the blue noise and channel balancing issues rarely manifest above 3600Kelvin. At 2800 all of Graeme's magic can only do so much, but, IMO, filtering out a full stop of light or more to get to the "holy grail" of 5000 is not a better answer. YMMV.

Cheers - #19
 
Don't forget that you clip the red channel faster under tungsten light also, especially if trying to overcompensate for the blue channel. Definitely have to be more precise under tungsten IMHO.
 
Jeremy Hildebrant said:
Don't forget that you clip the red channel faster under tungsten light also, especially if trying to overcompensate for the blue channel. Definitely have to be more precise under tungsten IMHO.
Click to expand...

That is what we are talking about Jeremy. The blue filters are used to knock the red and green down.
 
Yes, I know. I was just mentioning the red channel as well when not filtering. I do use an 80C most of the time with tungsten or full CTB the lights if possible.... but I have never gotten close to 4900K with the 80C like Timur mentioned in his blog. I am usually around 4400K for balanced neutrals, some times even a couple hundred lower. Any ideas why? I was chalking it up to mired shift.
 
Not quite following you man...

Jeremy Hildebrant said:
Yes, I know. I was just mentioning the red channel as well when not filtering. I do use an 80C most of the time with tungsten or full CTB the lights if possible.... but I have never gotten close to 4900K with the 80C like Timur mentioned in his blog. I am usually around 4400K for balanced neutrals, some times even a couple hundred lower. Any ideas why? I was chalking it up to mired shift.
Click to expand...
 
Sorry, I think I was posing two thoughts at once. I guess I was just reiterating what had already been said. I read Timur's blog after I made the post so I didn't realize he referenced the red channel as well. Most people just always mention the bottom of the blue channel being an issue under tungsten light, but the top of the red channel is also in danger because of the native kelvin of the sensor. It's a downward slope and it gets evened our via digital gain when you set the camera to 3200K to achieve correct balance. So hopefully the top of the red channel and the bottom of the blue channel fell in to the dynamic range of the sensor in it's native state when feeding it tungsten light. (unless of course you purposely want your neutral tones to be warm)

The second part was just a question. Timur said in his blog that filtering with an 80C he was able to balance at around 4900K. I usually have to set the camera around 4200-4400K when using an 80C under studio tungsten light to have balanced neutral tones and I was curious why the difference.

Just metered a couple of our tungsten lights and they do vary a bit and also vary based on where they are plugged in at in the studio, maybe due to "line loss". Mole Richardson 1K's metered around 3000K to 3150K. A couple of our Arri 5k's were more consistent around 3200-3250K. But I still have never been close to a camera setting of 4900K with an 80C unless I wanted it warm. I don't know :)


Scott Crawley said:
Not quite following you man...
Click to expand...
 
The HMI fill was adding the blue to push up to 4900. Was intentional.

But I can't give away all my secrets can I... ;)

But I will double check the r3d. Just to be sure of the color temperature.
 
I have posted this clip before but due to this crazy thread..... There is no need to use CTB or anything infront of the lens. I shot the below at 3200, 800 ISO with 2 dinettes a hand full of peppers and a couple of 2k's.

The Dinettes (6bank lights) were dimmed so they whole setup would go golden. Shot wide open with vintage limo square fronts. No noise here boys! I shoot tungsten a lot, and this scene would not be the same if i shot with HMI's (i do use HMI's a lot also).

I shoot either tungsten or daylight, i use what suits the scene. And the onlytime i use colour correction filtration, was when i shot film and i only had a can of daylight stock and i used tungsten lighting or vice versa.

The EPIC is excellent in tungsten light


https://vimeo.com/50194586
 
Handsome spot. Thanks for sharing your setup.

Nothing beats a full, fat neg, eh? Downsampling is a nice option to have too.

Adam Eden said:
I have posted this clip before but due to this crazy thread..... There is no need to use CTB or anything infront of the lens. I shot the below at 3200, 800 ISO with 2 dinettes a hand full of peppers and a couple of 2k's.

The Dinettes (6bank lights) were dimmed so they whole setup would go golden. Shot wide open with vintage limo square fronts. No noise here boys! I shoot tungsten a lot, and this scene would not be the same if i shot with HMI's (i do use HMI's a lot also).

I shoot either tungsten or daylight, i use what suits the scene. And the onlytime i use colour correction filtration, was when i shot film and i only had a can of daylight stock and i used tungsten lighting or vice versa.

The EPIC is excellent in tungsten light


https://vimeo.com/50194586
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the added info Timur!

Timur Civan said:
The HMI fill was adding the blue to push up to 4900. Was intentional.

But I can't give away all my secrets can I... ;)

But I will double check the r3d. Just to be sure of the color temperature.
Click to expand...
 
This looks really nice Adam! The warmth of it works great for this piece, but I would be curious to see what the noise levels did if it were pushed towards being more neutral. Is it possible the warmth of it is hiding the blue pixel/channel noise because there is no blue gaining up to make anything true neutral?


Adam Eden said:
I have posted this clip before but due to this crazy thread..... There is no need to use CTB or anything infront of the lens. I shot the below at 3200, 800 ISO with 2 dinettes a hand full of peppers and a couple of 2k's.

The Dinettes (6bank lights) were dimmed so they whole setup would go golden. Shot wide open with vintage limo square fronts. No noise here boys! I shoot tungsten a lot, and this scene would not be the same if i shot with HMI's (i do use HMI's a lot also).

I shoot either tungsten or daylight, i use what suits the scene. And the onlytime i use colour correction filtration, was when i shot film and i only had a can of daylight stock and i used tungsten lighting or vice versa.

The EPIC is excellent in tungsten light


https://vimeo.com/50194586
Click to expand...
 
Peter, since we are on the topic of trying to figure what makes these cameras perform optimally, I am curious about a specific scene in the reboot of Arrested Development. 99.9% of what I have seen from the show looks really clean, even in what appears to be lower light situations. But there is something interesting that stood out to me in episode 6 (double crossers) which reminded me of all the discussion about blue channel noise with RED cameras. It is at 1:10 when there is the OTS shots of the discussion between Herbert Love and George Sr. The angle facing George Sr. is clean, but the angle over his shoulder looking at Herbert Love seems to exhibit more noticeable noise, especially in the back of George Sr.'s jacket. Curious what would cause this and if you remember details of the scene? Different cameras with different black shade calibrations? Were stop and ISO settings the same? Am I just seeing things :)


Peter Lyons Collister said:
Since the Red One we have herd about the CMOS sensor wanting 5600 kelvin light. I don't disagree. But is this not true of all CMOS sensors? Canon, Nikon, Alexa? But yet no still or motion user complained except Red users.

Is it because of the color science? ( no criticism of Graeme here).

I don't know. But I do know that we shot Spider-Man under mostly 3200 degree lights and it was screened on giant screens. And John and I lit it fucking dark

So I'm just wondering if we are chasing something that doesn't need to be chased?

Open to comments. And Timur I respect all that you touch so don't be upset.

Cheers from Hong Kong,

Peter
Click to expand...
 
I'll chime in here since I've spent many a late night staring into the lovely eyes of Redcode Raw tests in a variety of lighting conditions.

You can shoot just fine without "worrying" too much under tungsten. However, as Michael said, proper exposure is key if you want real pretty and clean-ish material.

The Mysterium-X is hungry for 5000 kelvin light when possible.

That said, if you want really, really clean results under tungsten you'll want to use a color correction filter. I personally have been using Schnieder's CTB filters since I've been an Red owner. Usually the 1/2 CTB.

Do I use them all the time when shooting at 3200K? No. However, where I do find them really useful is shooting things like green screen where I really don't want blue channel weirdness to get in the way of a clean pull.

If your grade pushed towards tungsten and is lifting a bit out of shadows lit by tungsten without a filter you'll certainly see some bluesies. Is it something that can be fixed in post? Yep. Is it something that can be tackled in camera? Yep.

The reason why some folks don't see it to often is due to exposure, lighting, and subject hue/luminance variances. If you are a DP who adds a good bit of fill you may have never seen it really come into play. If you're a DP who crushes your blacks over attempting a flatter look you may have also not noticed it.

Is a concern? Maybe, just depends on your shot, lighting setup, and desires from the final image. Is it something to be aware of? Certainly.
 
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