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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet...

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Quentin_B said:
I know it goes against the grain for them not to cram in every feature they can . . .
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Other people have said this, but Red already has reduced-feature cameras -- both 2/3-inch Scarlets. Unlike Epic, neither has built-in HD-SDI. They've cut the number of CF slots from the original design, as well as the size of the LCD. And, unlike every other camera in the Epic and Scarlet lines, neither has a minimum 4K resolution, so because "4K is the future" leaves them behind, they don't qualify for the "rendering obsolescence obsolete" imprimatur.
 
Are most of us crying over pricing overreacting a little bit here? We've known for a while now that "Scarlet" in its simplest from was going to cost at least around $5k for a very basic hobbyist, serious-enthusiast version and at least $10k and beyond for someone looking to kit it up in any serious way.

Can I remind everyone that even a Sony EX3 still retails for $8k and a Panasonic HPX500 retails for $12k at B&H?

I don't think you can buy a 2/3" chip Sony or Panasonic camcorder for less than $10k, and I'm pretty sure Canon doesn't even offer 2/3" at this point, much less a super-35 video camera. DSLR's don't count. They're basically RED's "brain" equivalent with much less capability and much more limitations. You can't shoot seriously on a DSLR without adding a crap load of accessories to them and we all know it.

Here's my real point, though. Think about what HDRx on your Scarlet really means. No more lighting for dynamic range. With this kind of latitude, you're looking at lighting basically for artistic reasons or to add quantities of light only. No more scrimming windows. No more renting giant HMI lamps just to fight the sun. No more mental and physical pain trying to grade a shot with blown out windows or crushed shadows because you had to make an exposure compromise on location/set. The "increase" of $1000 to me isn't an increase at all. It's a massive long term savings in time, energy, and money that you won't have to spend lighting a shot just to keep windows from blowing out. This is huge for everyone even (or especially) event/wedding videographers who don't even have the opportunity to light most of the time. This is not a nice to have, guys. It's revolutionary.

Oh, and I voted yes.
 
Lawrence Bansbach said:
Other people have said this, but Red already has reduced-feature cameras -- both 2/3-inch Scarlets. Unlike Epic, neither has built-in HD-SDI. They've cut the number of CF slots from the original design, as well as the size of the LCD. And, unlike every other camera in the Epic and Scarlet lines, neither has a minimum 4K resolution, so because "4K is the future" leaves them behind, they don't qualify for the "rendering obsolescence obsolete" imprimatur.
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I don't think the resolution difference is much of an issue. 16mm film doesn't have the resolution of 35mm film either, but 3k is way ahead of HD for 2k DCI finish in widescreen or scope formats and 2k DCI finish will be the standard for low budget films for at least the next 5 years plus most theaters are 2k projection for first gen and they won't be changed out for at least 5 years either.
The CF module is a module. They make two versions, single slot side mount and dual slot rear mount. Scarlet takes either. But CF for these cameras is really obsolete anyway SSD is the way to go and will be less expensive in the long run.
 
Art Chong said:
Here's my real point, though. Think about what HDRx™ on your Scarlet really means. No more lighting for dynamic range. With this kind of latitude, you're looking at lighting basically for artistic reasons or to add quantities of light only. No more scrimming windows. No more renting giant HMI lamps just to fight the sun. No more mental and physical pain trying to grade a shot with blown out windows or crushed shadows because you had to make an exposure compromise on location/set. The "increase" of $1000 to me isn't an increase at all. It's a massive long term savings in time, energy, and money that you won't have to spend lighting a shot just to keep windows from blowing out. This is huge for everyone even (or especially) event/wedding videographers who don't even have the opportunity to light most of the time. This is not a nice to have, guys. It's revolutionary.

Oh, and I voted yes.
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For location shooting large HMI's punched or bounced through windows are for fighting the sun but are also used for fighting clouds and the changing position of the sun throughout the shooting of the setup/scene...HDR will do NOTHING to solve those issues... you still need a geni and some 18k's to do it correctly HDR saves you no money in that situation.

I do agree that docs and wedding videographers will greatly benefit from this feature.
 
Kip Kubin said:
For location shooting large HMI's punched or bounced through windows are for fighting the sun but are also used for fighting clouds and the changing position of the sun throughout the shooting of the setup/scene...HDR will do NOTHING to solve those issues... you still need a geni and some 18k's to do it correctly HDR saves you no money in that situation.

I do agree that docs and wedding videographers will greatly benefit from this feature.
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for sure!
HDR isnt the instant DP button..

lighting will ALWAYS be used
 
BRAVO to Jim and RED for asking us first and doing the right thing! For those worried about not being able to afford the extra $$$, please get yourself the best camera for your budget NOW, don't wait, and start earning money with it ASAP. You will find, depending on your talent and business skills that you will make your ROI within 2-6 jobs (atleast here in NYC). $1000 or even $5,000 can be the cost of just one good lens. If that price is not within your means at this time, then build your business up to it. I think we all know of a certain individual here who started by making rubber handgrips for bikes, and look where he's at now. After you make your ROI, then before you know it, Scarlet and Epics will be out, you will be solvent, and then you have your choice of world class gear, but we have to work up to it, and thanks to Jim and the RED team, we can!
 
I think HDRx™ is the advantage Scarlet will have over the coming competition from lower end cameras that have had enough time to develop in this long wait. They must know other companies are very close to bringing out similar specs and they are betting they won't have HDR features included. A year ago, a Scarlet would have had total attention from the world, maybe Red knows that they are somewhat late, now, that April is around the corner.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
Why does everyone feel they need to OWN a camera to be a filmmaker?
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Because its pointless renting something that you don't know how to use. By owning it you can teach yourself to use it.
You gotta realize that most of us indi film makers are not working DP's. We can't learn the menu system of a camera, or the fall off of a kino, or the sensitivity of a hypercardoid while on the job.
We are web designers, accountants, school teachers, editors, PA's, students ... you name it.
We do it for a love of the art and a story to tell.

edit:
and guess what ... 99.9% of the time the profit margin is ZERO. Thats how much we love it.
 
Thinking about all those people saying this is the deal breaker for them - that they're abandoning any plans they had to buy Scarlet and they'll be off now to buy a 5D or some video camera or other. Jim knows they'll be back. What else are they going to do? You can storm off and buy what you want but it's not going to make it half the camera the Scarlet will be - especially with HDRx and Magic Motion™.

One of the great things will be that any glass they buy for their stop-gap camera will fit right on their Scarlet, when they finally swallow their pride and just line up with the rest of us.
 
Michael Ou said:
... For those worried about not being able to afford the extra $$$, please get yourself the best camera for your budget NOW, don't wait, and start earning money with it ASAP. You will find, depending on your talent and business skills that you will make your ROI within 2-6 jobs (atleast here in NYC)....
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Buy once and buy right. Although I agree with some of your post I feel that you don't just go out and buy any camera and immediatly make money with it. You should get the best you can afford or wait until you can get the one you really want. Just as Red is doing with this particular camera systems' build, dy not releasing it until it is ready, don't just buy the first thing you run across.
 
J Davis said:
Because its pointless renting something that you don't know how to use. By owning it you can teach yourself to use it.
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Sure... but that could be any camera with basic manual controls over exposure, etc. I shoot on high-end cameras but the only one I ever owned was a Super-8 camera, which I used to teach myself the basics of cinematography. The basics can be scaled up to high-end equipment.

So the issue is whether you are getting the camera for teaching yourself or to make professional productions. With enough money, I suppose it could be the same camera, but there is nothing stopping you from getting something cheaper just for educational purposes. Truth is that you can teach yourself a lot about cinematography with a DSLR that shoots video.
 
Obviously I voted "No" to HDRx in Scarlet. I made my best case for it to be excluded, but it was based solely on avoiding a delay in getting it to market. Then I read Adam Wilt's article of his visit to Red Studios and learned so much more about the Scarlet situation. Obviously, Scarlet is not on the front burner right now, so I think it makes sense to build the best Scarlet possible given the amount of innovation that's been going on with respect to Epic.

This brings up two points.

1. As Scarlet inches its way up the feature scale at the same time it inches its way to market, it opens up a huge opportunity for an even more basic entry-level RED. It won't be named "Pinkie" but 2K for 2K is a license to print money. I'd like one.

2. It is a terrible temptation to pile on the features that are being developed for Epic onto Scarlet. I get it. Why not? But when the line-up was released, there was a very definite limitation on features that allowed Scarlet to put 35mm into the hands of many while protecting the investment of those wanting to buy the pro level Epic. The lines that were so clearly drawn when the DSMC system was announced have now and forever blurred. I don't know what the repercussions of this will be, but it has muddied the waters of what exactly defines the Epic.

I'm not being critical here. I'm all for pushing this envelope as far as humanly and financially possible. What this is doing for the industry will be remembered as a legendary time in camera development and it sits squarely on Jim's shoulders.

I do wonder just how far this Epic hardware base can evolve before we hit a plateau. This will define the product cycle and, that, more than limiting features, will protect your camera investment.

I would like to point out that some competitors are manifesting a degree of desperation by cutting development and regulatory corners-- this is an indication of how successful Red has been in making inroads into the market. Historically, high-end cinema cameras have enjoyed product cycles the span of ice ages. Now were looking down the barrel of Moore's law and I expect some industry vets may be selected for extinction if they can't manage their R&D calendar. It's pretty clear that Red is now the de-facto leader in high-end imaging technology development.

I'd like to see Red release some high-volume units into the wild. Capturing a huge swath of the high-end market and following that by flooding the mid-level market is a big dis-incentive for a competitor to spend $10 to $15 million in R&D to play catch-up.
 
David, I wasn't referring to learning cinematography (which as you pointed out you can do on DSLR's).
I really did mean teach yourself the camera - menu systems, post work flow, find its limits, strengths, work out where the buttons are... ie get fast with a piece of equipment.
When you don't have any access at all to a piece of equipment then you have a choice...
Do I rent it and pay daily rent on it to learn it.
Or do I buy it, learn it, ROI it on a few gigs and sell it before it depreciates.
It may not be everybodies choice but I choose to do the latter.
 
J Davis said:
Because its pointless renting something that you don't know how to use. By owning it you can teach yourself to use it.
You gotta realize that most of us indi film makers are not working DP's. We can't learn the menu system of a camera, or the fall off of a kino, or the sensitivity of a hypercardoid while on the job.
We are web designers, accountants, school teachers, editors, PA's, students ... you name it.
We do it for a love of the art and a story to tell.

edit:
and guess what ... 99.9% of the time the profit margin is ZERO. Thats how much we love it.
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A few of us have certainly been used to appreciate your posts here or @dvxuser.com, probably without a specified clue why. But it will be hard to ignore the reason from now on ;-)
 
Yes, you got it. When its zero profit margin on my art I play everything really close to the bone. And I'm a freelancer who pays US medical insurance for 4 because I support a family.
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so when I justify an expense, I don't just have to justify it to myself but to my conscience because of those who depend on me. Can't just keep throwing money down a bottomless hole called filmmaking
 
Shane Betts said:
Thinking about all those people saying this is the deal breaker for them - that they're abandoning any plans they had to buy Scarlet and they'll be off now to buy a 5D or some video camera or other. Jim knows they'll be back. What else are they going to do? You can storm off and buy what you want but it's not going to make it half the camera the Scarlet will be - especially with HDRx™™ and Magic Motion™.

One of the great things will be that any glass they buy for their stop-gap camera will fit right on their Scarlet, when they finally swallow their pride and just line up with the rest of us.
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This is a silly post. Sorry but buying the latest and greatest camera has nothing to do with being a filmmaker and won't make you a better storyteller.

As with any camera purchase, its not about pride or emotion but need. You need to weigh all the pros and cons of that camera system and see if it's the right tool for the job.

I don't need the "best" camera on market but one that offers the best bang for the buck. Lets say Canon released the Mark III with no aliasing or moire and shoots in a raw format or close to it for less than $2,500. Would Scarlet be worth the added price?
 
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