Scarlet...

[Patrick Grossien]

Yup, Stephen - that is a funny point.
With this move RED has pitted their low-cost option against just about any high-end camera BUT Epic out there.

That's kinda rude, isn't it -

Hehehe I think I like rude people!

For me it's unbelievable that there actually is a company who is not differentiating between their high and low end cameras in terms of leaving features out just for the sake of creating different price points each 200$.
Eat this *** <- place your favorite stills manufacturer here.

Go RED go!

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

thanks Jim and team this is an amazing step and once again shows how great of a company Red is.

For those saying that 1k extra has squashed their dreams of scarlet I have a few questions to ask them. What are they going to buy now, a far inferior camera for 1k less (or more?) and if adding 1k hits you so hard then it seems like you were stretching your budget in the first place to buy one. Maybe just maybe that means the camera is not for you, if you work in the field a few jobs should cover the price difference (one actually), and if you are just a hobbyist you really are in no rush so why not save up for that extra bit of time?

Really you can get just about anything you want if you put your mind to it, so how about not complaining and putting in the work to pay for it like the rest of us.

For now this is scarlet nothing else exists so complaining about the change (to me) is a waste of bandwidth and all of our time.

No offense meant we all have our own paths, have a good night and weekend.

keep on filming

Stephen, just a few points for you to consider:

Not everyone gets their paycheck in dollars.

Some people live in countries where you pay 60% custom taxes over foreign electronics.

Scarlet was initially a $3K camera, so many (including me) were very happy about an entry-level RED camera.

Then what? Progressive price increase, Scarlet slowly crawled out of my (and many other's) budget.

Playing the "if you don't have the money maybe it's not for you" card is a bit rude considering Scarlet's history. Imagine if EPIC price jumped to $95K...

Perhaps I buy Scarlet, perhaps not. I want RAW and better quality? Yes... But I still need to better myself as a DP and cheaper options are offering more quality each day.

 

[Yannick Verry]

Some people live in countries where you pay 60% custom taxes over foreign electronics.

For this reason, it would be nice to know where is Red on their schedule to get an international resellers network.

And, as i asked somewhere else before, what about scarlets production in asia ? Have they found a new manufacturer yet ? Because if not, we can wait quite a long time before Scarlets get ready to ship, compared to US manufactured Epics...

 

[Quentin Brown]

There seems to be a lot of confusion caused by assumptions made in this thread as to whether Jim is referring to the whole Scarlet range or just the Scarlet 2/3" cinema and fixed in his announcement. Some clarification would be good here, but perhaps it has been left ambiguous in order to gauge opinion?

I for one will be happy to see HDRx on Scarlet 2/3" whether or not it makes it into the other models in the range as I see this sensor size as a good one for documentary work due to the deeper dof and the extra DR will just be so helpful in many uncontrolled high contrast lighting situations.

 

[Quentin Brown]

I also think that RED could produce a cut down DSLR killer with a similar price point to a 5DmkII. They have the tech already, REDcode RAW, etc. I know it goes against the grain for them not to cram in every feature they can but they could clear up in that budget range/market sector and possibly fund future developments, maybe even bring down the price of accessories due to greater mass production savings. But my understanding is that RED have never been in it for the money, they have that, they just want to make the best cameras they can. Others will eventually fill that gap in the market if it gets left open by RED and as a small company they need to pick their niche.

 

[Manjeet Singh]

Jim, charge me 1k more and deliver the camera before the end of this year. Scarlet is the camera, which would revolutionize the indie film-making. Which was your objective to start this company. It should be given the highest priority.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

i just want to know the real differences.. its a it keeps becoming a smaller and smaller leap from epic to scarlet, yet the prices are still the same big jump

That is only because RED has not talked about everything that EPIC can do yet.

There's much more to camera systems than resolution and frame rates.

That said - I think the Scarlet will offer so much - that MANY owner/operators might be better served with investing in Scarlet and building a bigger kit than having an EPIC without all the bells & whistles.

What nobody knows is how long it will take to get a decent number of EPICs into the field - say ... 1000. And how long after ... or during ... it will be before there are high numbers of Scarlets available.

Any way I try to slice it - there's gonna be a TON of EPICS and a TON of SCARLETS in the field working ... I want 'em both for sure.

 

[J Davis]

I also think that RED could produce a cut down DSLR killer with a similar price point to a 5DmkII. They have the tech already, REDcode RAW, etc. I know it goes against the grain for them not to cram in every feature ...

yes that was what the original 3k for 3k scarlet was supposed to be before dslr's beat them to the finish line, the new version is clearly now aimed above that market with its new price point

I for one would still like to see red return to its original goal of a pocket camera instead of the 2/3 drag racer they are creating, but this may never happen now

 

[Enrique Blein]

I hope it also applies to the 2/3 inch, otherwise this might change a lot of people's choice of camera. I need the 2/3rd inch system for my line of work, but I am willing to to tackle the focusing challenges of the Scarlet 35 for the sake of HDRx™. I wish I could have it on the 2/3rd Scarlet... (I think it would be a bigger blow to the whole industry if Jim pulled this off.)

 

[Gunleik Groven]

The soccer-mum idea seems to be pretty much abandoned, but looking at REDs general image, that isn't too much of a surprise. (BTW I wouldn't have minded the original soccer-mum camera either)

 

[Elsie N]

The original 3k for 3k camera... I'm guessing ten years from now you could resell it for about $300 in todays currency. A well cared-for Scarlet with HDRx would more likely resell for about 80 cents on the dollar, IMO.

 

[J Davis]

There seems to be a lot of confusion caused by assumptions made in this thread as to whether Jim is referring to the whole Scarlet range or just the Scarlet 2/3" cinema and fixed in his announcement. Some clarification would be good here ...

I agree clarification / confirmation would be good. But the big boss ain't stupid.
If he says the generic word scarlet then one would assume he would be referring to the entire product line.

The impact is felt at the bottom end where the price is cheapest and the mark up is felt more. If you're budgeting 15-20k to get a scarlet s35 package together with s35 cine lenses then an extra grand is not as significant as saving for a 'out of the box' ready to shoot all in one package for $4750. But I'm sure you are in the same boat as me and already know this.

What confuses me is why this sudden need to roll out the feature across every camera. There is so much awesome red footage on TV's and cinema screens already shot - proof enough that non-HDRx cameras are also stunningly good when in the right hands.

 

[Scott Brown]

That is only because RED has not talked about everything that EPIC can do yet.

Hi Mark

This is why I'm looking at Epic and Scarlet side by side and scratching my head as the price differential at the moment just doesn't make ANY sense.

The BIG issue - Scarlet has evolved into a camera that offers at $7000; 90% of what Epic currently offers at $28000. Now I'm no marketing genius BUT this looks crazy.

Obsolescence obsolete...this was the original Red mantra, however as it stands the S35 Scarlet virtually renders Epic "financially" obsolete.

Seriously put the specs side by side and compare them...it boils down to a higher data rate *(100 MB/s against 250 MB/s) and this will be really hard to spot in any footage + higher frame rates and as said previously these options will not be vital to the majority of users as Scarlet already offers very impressive slow motion functionality.

Epic NEEDS to be $21,000 different from Scarlet for it have a chance of selling in volume. As it stands, It makes much more sense to buy 4 Scarlets instead of one Epic!!!

Thus far HDRx™™ was the one feature that would have added real value to Epic but with its inclusion in the Scarlet this USP has vanished. Now Red may have some additional tricks up their sleeve for Epic that we don't know about yet? Jim?

I'm not trying to be negative here in any way, I think what Red has done and continues to do is miraculous. I simply see a big potential problem here in differentiating between their lower and high end products.

Best wishes

Scott

 

[Scott Brown]

Light bulb moment!!!

Just realised, Red now no longer has a lower and higher end product range...every camera looks like being "high" end. :smilielol5:

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I wouldn't worry - or rather: I don't.
Again, I think the implemention of HDRx™™ in the Scarlet is rather nonchalant and rude, fun and RED typical.
All of a sudden making the low-end camera capable of more DR than any other thing out there and more resolution than most (let's not forget the Penelope...).

But I see a lot of things that can distinguish these cameras except from high framerates.
Easy-HDR could well be one of them.
Interfacing with standard equipment could be another.

Look how ET can charge 580 USD for a mini-BNC to BNC adaptor. It is totally silly, as to development-price and price of parts (something like 10-20 $), but makes totally sense as it is a NEEDED feature on a lot of sets.

If the Epic is tuned towards working and interfacing well with "pro filmsets" (which I really think it will) on all levels, it could claim the pricediference only on that single parameter.

Add then:
(Fill in favourite Epic feature here...)

 

[Scott Auerbach]

The post I've been praying for.

 

[Elsie N]

Hi Mark

This is why I'm looking at Epic and Scarlet side by side and scratching my head as the price differential at the moment just doesn't make ANY sense.

The BIG issue - Scarlet has evolved into a camera that offers at $7000; 90% of what Epic currently offers at $28000. Now I'm no marketing genius BUT this looks crazy.

Obsolescence obsolete...this was the original Red mantra, however as it stands the S35 Scarlet virtually renders Epic "financially" obsolete.

Seriously put the specs side by side and compare them...it boils down to a higher data rate *(100 MB/s against 250 MB/s) and this will be really hard to spot in any footage + higher frame rates and as said previously these options will not be vital to the majority of users as Scarlet already offers very impressive slow motion functionality.

Epic NEEDS to be $21,000 different from Scarlet for it have a chance of selling in volume. As it stands, It makes much more sense to buy 4 Scarlets instead of one Epic!!!

Thus far HDRx™™™ was the one feature that would have added real value to Epic but with its inclusion in the Scarlet this USP has vanished. Now Red may have some additional tricks up their sleeve for Epic that we don't know about yet? Jim?

I'm not trying to be negative here in any way, I think what Red has done and continues to do is miraculous. I simply see a big potential problem here in differentiating between their lower and high end products.

Best wishes

Scott

Maybe the answer is that the arbitrary extra 10% you speak of will be worth the price differential to some. Maybe that extra capability in the right hands will open up possibilities that even 4 Scarlets could not match.

 

[J Davis]

As it stands, It makes much more sense to buy 4 Scarlets instead of one Epic

Ha. rent out three and shoot with the fourth and when a job comes along that needs higher frame rates for a particular shot just use twixtor. lol

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

HDR wasn't a feature for either until a month ago.

Scarlet got more expensive and cut the price gap by $1k.

You always were told that the image quality between Scarlet and Epic should be the same.

Nothing has really changed. If anything it's changed to make Epic a better value. Everybody got an extra feature. How is that Scarlet getting a leg up? The same features that made Epic a possibly worthwhile investment vs scarlet are still the differentiating features.

That's not entirely accurate, Gavin. Jim was talking about enabling HDR for EPIC early last year - it's just that not that many people paid attention to it, until recently, when he unveiled it - now, it's the talk of the town.

When he first discussed it, Jim said that it was something which would likely be enabled after the camera's release. But I think it is so differentiating, that they're now planning to make it the centerpiece of their realease, hence its incorporation in SCARLET as a spec, here, for the first time, in real time.

But he has been alluding to its development, specifically for EPIC, for about a year - I know, because I asked him about his "super secret HDR mode" for EPIC at the NAB reduser bash:

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/misc/science_n_technology/red-digital-cinema-the-nab-2010-event.html

In this article, I even talk about it as the feature which I'm most looking forward to...

Mark is alluding to features outside of image quality which distinguish EPIC. It would be nice to know what those are, considering I already have money down on one. I already pushed my chips on the table with a certain set of expectations. Those expectations may have changed this week.

This isn't a bad thing, if it saves me a big pile of money and gives me access to the exact same image.

This is the right move for the company...a great move for them, to push all imaging technology into their future - a future defined and led by RED.

I just want to be sure that spending the additional $21,000 is the right move for me. I may be one of those people who may not need additional feature sets besides the best image on the planet.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

The BIG issue - Scarlet has evolved into a camera that offers at $7000; 90% of what Epic currently offers at $28000. Now I'm no marketing genius BUT this looks crazy.

Scott -

90% of what Epic offers ???

Not sure how you calculate 90%.

Again, more to a camera system than frame rate and resolution.

I'm sure RED will start to talk about some other features of the EPIC camera system in due time.