Scarlet-W announcement only really hurt Scarlet-D owners

[Andy Corleone]

IMHO the recent news of the mighty new Scarlet-W brain for $9950 is only good to hurt current Scarlet-D and Epic-D owners and even Weapon Pre-orders (can you imagine that? This red camera is not fully available yet and is loosing popularity).

Before the announcement the price of the Scarlet-D camera was $14,500 (only to recap this camera only been available "In STOCK" to purchase for about a year only) Red now is offering a new smaller body, lighter, Prores capable, 50% cheaper.

At least you have a project to shoot before April (maybe a bit longer before normal human being like us start receiving their orders) I really doubt Anybody will be willing to pay any decent money for a Scarlet-D any time soon.

For current Scarlet-D owners the upgrade is not really tempting I meant Camera looks nice and the not need of lemo connector is kind of cool. I don't really care about Prores, size and weight improvements. what really matter for most people is Image Quality and that didn't changed at all. But honestly what hurted most was the sudenlly devaluation of my few old moths Scarlet. The $2,000 discount is welcome but not fair and enough.

I definitely will keep my Scarlet for a year or two until I can't make any more money with it. But definitly this will be the last time I invest in anything red again. Make lot more sense to RENT than buying these RED cameras that devaluate so rapidly. The amount of projects for me that really required a RED are well paid but very tiny in a year (I don't have any doubt those project can afford renting). Apart of the few commericials, I had use the scarlet for some other projects but only because I have it next to me. other cameras would had perfectly been fit for the job for example the sony FS7, which is my workhorse and was fully paid with in two months since them is been all profits to funds my Scarlet debt.
Saddly I think this is the case for most red camera owners. Unfotunally not everybody is called on a weekly basis to shoot $50,000-$100,000 project that requiere a $25,000 camera kit.

Peace guys I'm just angry about my poor decisions and honetly I'm not totally blaming RED for all this. I understand is not easy keep up in a market with companies like Blackmagic offering a similar product for a fraction of the price. Worst thing is NAB is not here yet but all those companies know what red repertoire is. I think a better tatic these days would had been, Secretly having Dragon-W cameras ready for NAB so people can order them at the time of announcement. I think THAT would had been revolutionary and diferent from actual practices.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I think the recent news of the mighty new Scarlet-W brain for $9950 is only good to hurt current Scarlet-D and Epic-D owners and even weapon preorders (can you imagine that? This camera is not fully available yet and is loosing popularity).

Before the announcement the price of the Scarlet-D camera was $14,500 (only to recap this camera only been available "In STOCK" to purchase for about a year only) Red now is offering a new smaller body, lighter, Prores capable, 50% cheaper.

At least you have a project to shoot before April (maybe a bit longer before normal human being like us start receiving their orders) I really doubt Anybody will be willing to pay any decent money for a Scarlet-D any time soon.

For current Scarlet-D owners the upgrade is not really tempting I meant Camera looks nice and the not need of lemo connector is kind of cool. I don't really care about Prores, size and weight improvements. what really matter for most people is Image Quality and that didn't changed at all. But honestly what hurted most was the sudenlly devaluation of my few old moths Scarlet. The $2,000 discount is welcome but not fair and enough.

I definitely will keep my Scarlet for a year or two until I can't make any more money with it. But definitly this will be the last time I invest in anything red again. Make lot more sense to RENT than buying these RED cameras that devaluate so rapidly. The amount of projects for me that really required a RED are well paid but very tiny in a year (I don't have any doubt those project can afford renting). Apart of the few commericials, I had use the scarlet for some other projects but only because I have it next to me. other cameras would had perfectly been fit for the job for example the sony FS7, which is my workhorse and was fully paid with in two months since them is been all profits to funds my Scarlet debt.
Saddly I think this is the case for most red camera owners. Unfotunally not everybody is called on a weekly basis to shoot $50,000-$100,000 project that requiere a $25,000 camera kit.

Peace guys I'm just angry about my poor decisions and honetly I'm not totally blaming RED for all this. I understand is not easy keep up in a market with companies like Blackmagic offering a similar product for a fraction of the price. Worst thing is NAB is not here yet but all those companies know what red repertoire is. I think a better tatic these days would had been, Secretly having Dragon-W cameras ready for NAB so people can order them at the time of announcement. I think THAT would had been revolutionary and difernt from actual practices.

Possibly it´s not for you. But it´s quite common that tech companies do annual updates of their product line and there is nobody that says you have to stay current and stand in line to get the latest and greatest every time it comes out. I´m sure a scarlet D is a valid camera for atleast 6 years forward which possibly is two more upgrade cycles. Just as the red one is a very usable camera today.

But investing in a camera to use it a few times a year and then let it sit on the shelf.... Thats a bad investment for sure. I think with the hassle and risk that comes with owning your own gear you should not count longer than 6 months or the most a year for a full ROI. Or simply calculate if it´s less costly to rent for the times that you use the camera. But then again some also see a value in having their own camera to do test, shoot when every you want etc, etc. So there is for sure a lot of other excuses for owning a camera then the money it brings ing.

I think a scarlet D will be worth about the same as a Weapon scarlet since Red gave the 2k USD discount for scarlet owners on the weapon scarlet. To think that it would not drop in value over time I think is crazy.

 

[Andy Corleone]

Possibly it´s not for you. But it´s quite common that tech companies do annual updates of their product line and there is nobody that says you have to stay current and stand in line to get the latest and greatest every time it comes out. I´m sure a scarlet D is a valid camera for atleast 6 years forward which possibly is two more upgrade cycles. Just as the red one is a very usable camera today.

But investing in a camera to use it a few times a year and then let it sit on the shelf.... Thats a bad investment for sure. I think with the hassle and risk that comes with owning your own gear you should not count longer than 6 months or the most a year for a full ROI. Or simply calculate if it´s less costly to rent for the times that you use the camera. But then again some also see a value in having their own camera to do test, shoot when every you want etc, etc. So there is for sure a lot of other excuses for owning a camera then the money it brings ing.

I think a scarlet D will be worth about the same as a Weapon scarlet since Red gave the 2k USD discount for scarlet owners on the weapon scarlet. To think that it would not drop in value over time I think is crazy.

Sir, Glad to hear you are one of the few that does a $50,000-$100,000 project very often to justify a $25,000 camera kit. Unfortunately I don't think that's the case for Most people (Or at least for the People I know). If I want I can easily use the Scarlet-D for every single project but I think is an overkill to used it on a $5,000 Project , or Maybe is just ME that prefer to use cheaper cameras for the cheaper projects.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Thanks for venting?

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Using a Scarlet D on a 5000 dollar is not an overkill. I think its better to focus on what kind of project it is. Perhaps a smaller and lighter is better for a project Some times. I understand its not funny to se your invested camera devalue, but Atleast your camera is still as good as before. Dont stress to have the latest gear evry year, enjoy the great camera you got!

 

[Matthew Quinn]

Some times I use my Dragon on $500 projects. It looks better.

 

[Javier Badet]

I feel the same as mentioned by Andy, for Scarlet Dragon owners, there wasn't much time to get investment back and the new price is not favorable to us either. Just saying that Scarlet-W is a too early announcement for me.

 

[Bill Sepaniak]

Like it or not, to a greater or lesser extent "Moore's Law" applies to digital cameras ... especially cameras like RED that are basically small computers. Stagnate vs. Innovate ... in RED's case they have always chosen the latter.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Sir, Glad to hear you are one of the few that does a $50,000-$100,000 project very often to justify a $25,000 camera kit. Unfortunately I don't think that's the case for Most people (Or at least for the People I know). If I want I can easily use the Scarlet-D for every single project but I think is an overkill to used it on a $5,000 Project , or Maybe is just ME that prefer to use cheaper cameras for the cheaper projects.

No I do all kinds of projects, low and high budget and I also rent the camera out to get as much out of it as possible.. Even though that showed to be a not so smart move as the last rental client was not only a film maker but also a thief so he decided to steal my dragon and claim that he did get robbed. And even if the insurance covered it, when all is done I lost about 60k USD on that rental. So when I get weapon I dont really see it go out on too many little hip hop music video productions without any of my staff attending the shoot...

I dont understand the logic to use cheaper gear for smaller productions, if you got a formula 1 car why not use it? but if you rent then possibly thats another thing. But as I see it, that is possibly the bigest benefit of owning, the fact that you can toss your gear onto projects that could not afford it and by doing so you are able to deliver more than the next guy and hopefully it also shows in the end result which with a bit of luck brings in that next project... Do the best you can with what you have at hand, kind of mentality works well in the film industry I think.

Some times I use my Dragon on $500 projects. It looks better.

Yes...not only that, sometimes I even force it onto people that dont even want it

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Even though that showed to be a not so smart move as the last rental client was not only a film maker but also a thief so he decided to steal my dragon and claim that he did get robbed. And even if the insurance covered it, when all is done I lost about 60k USD on that rental.

Sorry to hear. These things are much more annoying than a devaluation through progress. Since 2008 I had to rent at least 20x due to broken sensors in my Red camera (RedOne, EpicMX, 2x Epic Dragon). Altogether a loss of about well 20k. High reliability is a huge cost saver. Something Red cameras are not particular well known for, at least mine.

Hans

 

[Maik Müller]

IMHO the recent news of the mighty new Scarlet-W brain for $9950 is only good to hurt current Scarlet-D and Epic-D owners and even Weapon Pre-orders (can you imagine that? This red camera is not fully available yet and is loosing popularity).

I'm not feeling hurt at all.

Before the announcement the price of the Scarlet-D camera was $14,500 (only to recap this camera only been available "In STOCK" to purchase for about a year only) Red now is offering a new smaller body, lighter, Prores capable, 50% cheaper.

Unlike other companies Jarred said right away during the WEAPON announcement, that there will be a "disruptive" Scarlet-like version of a DSMC² body. We knew it was coming and we knew what this means to existing cameras.

For current Scarlet-D owners the upgrade is not really tempting I meant Camera looks nice and the not need of lemo connector is kind of cool. I don't really care about Prores, size and weight improvements. what really matter for most people is Image Quality and that didn't changed at all. But honestly what hurted most was the sudenlly devaluation of my few old moths Scarlet.

I hear you, if your Scarlet is just a few months old, the situation is a little painful. But you said it yourself, you don't care about Prores, size, weight and the improvements in IQ aren't big enough for you (they are there + more fps and better compression). So why bother? Scarlet-X/D is fine for you, you said it yourself. The camera didn't lose value, it's the same amazing tool that you have bought a few months back, it shoots the same amazing images. All what changed is the resale value - and sorry if i put my finger on that again, it was to be expected. THis situation also means that you can get accessories cheaper on the used market too. It's not all bad about dropping prices.

The deal is nice, getting a rebate of a new camera-package without even having to send something back is pretty generous. You can sell the old camera or keep it as B-Cam. Thats pretty awesome and makes your kit even stronger.

There are positive sides. Don't be sad or frustrated about your decisions or the situation at all, keep shooting with your Dragon Scarlet, the images speak for themself. And you should sell those and your skills, not just some camera-specs on paper.

 

[sam karr]

Maybe the fact that the scarlet dragon can shoot 6k for stills will help it to hold a bit of its value. That's something some people wants apparently.

 

[Andy Corleone]

No I do all kinds of projects, low and high budget and I also rent the camera out to get as much out of it as possible.. Even though that showed to be a not so smart move as the last rental client was not only a film maker but also a thief so he decided to steal my dragon and claim that he did get robbed. And even if the insurance covered it, when all is done I lost about 60k USD on that rental. So when I get weapon I dont really see it go out on too many little hip hop music video productions without any of my staff attending the shoot...

I dont understand the logic to use cheaper gear for smaller productions, if you got a formula 1 car why not use it? but if you rent then possibly thats another thing. But as I see it, that is possibly the bigest benefit of owning, the fact that you can toss your gear onto projects that could not afford it and by doing so you are able to deliver more than the next guy and hopefully it also shows in the end result which with a bit of luck brings in that next project... Do the best you can with what you have at hand, kind of mentality works well in the film industry I think.



Yes...not only that, sometimes I even force it onto people that dont even want it

I think everybody have a differnt philosophy in how to run their business but I think as long there is some thought and planning behind either way is OK,


One of the main points that bother me about the RED cameras is how fast they are devaluating recently, I remember Red One and the Epic did hold their price for longer. I think something is not right with this new breed of red cameras. My Macbook pro Retina and Mac Pro Trashcan that I bought 3 years Ago are doing pretty good in that respect in not losing value that fast.


When I invested my hardworking cash on RED camera I was expecting they were going to hold their value for a longer period. not 50% within a few months.

 

[Erich Roland]

When to buy a camera has always been a quandry. Wait too long in a product cycle and your bound to feel burned, too early your not sure how the clients will feel of what the demand will be like. These camera companies have to innovate and I imagine most have the next model on the RD table as the new model is rolling out. I feel your pain as everyone is in the same boat. But these cameras are ALL very capable of first class imagery so hold on to it and shoot beautiful shows, and when its time to buy the next camera you will know it. If a client wants the latest toy go rent a body and keep motoring with what you have. Not that tough really.

I highly recommend (if money is super tight) spending it on everything else that doesn't go out of favor every 6-10 months... and spend it on lenses and tripods, and lighting gear. Own a Scarlet-x or a C300 (something cheap and capable) and rent the higher-end body when the project calls for it. Then when your comfortable with extra cash and the signs are clearer what camera will last a few years and suits your needs.... then go for it. If your too close to the ground with cash for gear, and your penchant is to own the latest model camera.... that's not a healthy combination.

 

[Scott Crawley]

When to buy a camera has always been a quandry. Wait too long in a product cycle and your bound to feel burned, too early your not sure how the clients will feel of what the demand will be like. These camera companies have to innovate and I imagine most have the next model on the RD table as the new model is rolling out. I feel your pain as everyone is in the same boat. But these cameras are ALL very capable of first class imagery so hold on to it and shoot beautiful shows, and when its time to buy the next camera you will know it. If a client wants the latest toy go rent a body and keep motoring with what you have. Not that tough really.

I highly recommend (if money is super tight) spending it on everything else that doesn't go out of favor every 6-10 months... and spend it on lenses and tripods, and lighting gear. Own a Scarlet-x or a C300 (something cheap and capable) and rent the higher-end body when the project calls for it. Then when your comfortable with extra cash and the signs are clearer what camera will last a few years and suits your needs.... then go for it. If your too close to the ground with cash for gear, and your penchant is to own the latest model camera.... that's not a healthy combination.

... Much wisdom here, thanks for sharing it.

When I look at the bigger picture what I see is Red coming of age. They are finding where they fit in the market and are becoming a little less disruptive.

Would you go along with that Erich? I suspect rental houses such as yours welcome the return of stability to the market.

 

[Elsie N]

Think of RED as being a car company. They sell luxury models, mid range models, and snappy affordable models. If you bought last year's model, the new model doesn't change how your car drives.

If you can afford to trade up you do that. If you can't, continue driving the model you have until you can... it hasn't lost any of the features it had when you bought it.

More likely (reverting back to cameras now) it has more features than it had when you bought it via firmware.

 

[Phil Holland]

early announcement

There are some good posts in this thread addressing release dates versus ex0ectations, but one thing I'd like to point out is RED/Jarred announced Scarlet-W a full 6 months ahead of schedule. It was supposed to be revealed at NAB 2016. After Raven's announcement combined with the previous Weapon announcment/release a great deal of Scale Draogn owners were feeling "left out". There are/were posts all over REDuser with that settiment.

Essentially the earlier Scarlet-W announcement, preorder, and release will make some happy, but of course not everybody will be stoked. You could have bought a Scarlet Dragon last month for instance. At the same time, you have a good chunk of time before the first camera ships. You don't "need" to upgrade ASAP, though I do recommend the sooner than later mentality when it comes to camera purchases. The sooner it's in your hands, the sooner ROI can be recouped and the longer you have for that camera to make a profit. Again though, you'll have a hefty amount of time to upgrade to Scarlet-W if now isn't right for you yet.

 

[sam karr]

Essentially the earlier Scarlet-W announcement, preorder, and release will make some happy, but of course not everybody will be stoked. You could have bought a Scarlet Dragon last month for instance. At the same time, you have a good chunk of time before the first camera ships. You don't "need" to upgrade ASAP, though I do recommend the sooner than later mentality when it comes to camera purchases. The sooner it's in your hands, the sooner ROI can be recouped and the longer you have for that camera to make a profit. Again though, you'll have a hefty amount of time to upgrade to Scarlet-W if now isn't right for you yet.

Many will sell their scarlet-D when receiving the W. The more they wait the more it will depreciate too.

 

[jordan levy]

There are some good posts in this thread addressing release dates versus ex0ectations, but one thing I'd like to point out is RED/Jarred announced Scarlet-W a full 6 months ahead of schedule. It was supposed to be revealed at NAB 2016. After Raven's announcement combined with the previous Weapon announcment/release a great deal of Scale Draogn owners were feeling "left out". There are/were posts all over REDuser with that settiment.

Essentially the earlier Scarlet-W announcement, preorder, and release will make some happy, but of course not everybody will be stoked. You could have bought a Scarlet Dragon last month for instance. At the same time, you have a good chunk of time before the first camera ships. You don't "need" to upgrade ASAP, though I do recommend the sooner than later mentality when it comes to camera purchases. The sooner it's in your hands, the sooner ROI can be recouped and the longer you have for that camera to make a profit. Again though, you'll have a hefty amount of time to upgrade to Scarlet-W if now isn't right for you yet.

i mean if you bought a scarlet dragon in the last few months that was just because you needed it desperately or just bad research, it was well verbalized what was going on.
as well if you bought it early this year then you had a camera to work with from then all the way to march 2016 when no other options existed int hat price point, that's a whole year of use.

 

[Elsie N]

i mean if you bought a scarlet dragon in the last few months that was just because you needed it desperately or just bad research, it was well verbalized what was going on.
as well if you bought it early this year then you had a camera to work with from then all the way to march 2016 when no other options existed int hat price point, that's a whole year of use.

Good points... and if you amortize the amount of value lost over the time you owned it, you'll find you've paid a pretty low "rental" fee for owning the camera.