Scarlet-W 5k is actually Scarlet-W 6k in disguise

[Grant Smucker]

It is not as simple as that. My understanding is that Scarlet's sensor is the same Dragon in that it is cut from the same wafer but it does not perform reliably at the same speeds. Rather than toss the lot they divide them into groups based upon performance and rate them according to speed. Those that rate at the higher spec go into Epic Weapon while the slower ones go to Scarlet.

Therefore, if the chips were fast enough to perform at Epic Weapon resolutions and frame rates they would be placed in Epic systems.

No it is not just the sensor. Other proceeors in the system such as the ASIC are manufactured and sorted (or binned) in a similar fashion.

Is software used to throttle the system down and prevent errors? I don't doubt it, but it is not a limitation that is placed on the system arbitrarily in order to cheat you.

We are not asking for Weapon or Epic-D speeds. The camera is rated at 140MB/s which could be a number of different combinations of resolution, frame rate, and compression.

5k 24 4:1 (127 MB/sec)
5k 48 8:1 (127 MB/sec)
5k 96 16:1 (127 MB/sec)

So why can't we record 5k 96 16:1? That's not a hardware issue, it's software.

 

[Phil Holland]

So why can't we record 5k 96 16:1? That's not a hardware issue, it's software.

There's more to it than that as it's where "certain speeds" are in the camera. Some of that additional data bandwidth and data rate is utilized for dual ProRes recording.

It's early days though, RED Engineers might be able to squeak out more for sure, but it's not as simple as reading the number on the spec sheet to come up with frame rates. Processing power and boards as well as other factors I likely can't think of could effect the maximum frame rate.

Like I said though, early days.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Having done interviews like this in the past, I can totally see where something "missing" might lead to others "hypothesizing".

Well, I wouldn't hold it against Jarred if it was honest misunderstanding/miscommunication. But then it seems strange that he didn't just answer "yes" to the simple question if it was a 5k "cut" out of the current Dragon sensor. That is what we all were expecting anyway.

Nonetheless, I appreciate your input Phil.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Having done interviews like this in the past, I can totally see where something "missing" might lead to others "hypothesizing".

However, I'm nearly 100% confident that Jarred meant to say "it's the same sensor technology as in the 6K".

It's clearly listed as 25.6x13.6mm sensor size on the RED product and tech specs page.

It appears that while Scarlets of the past (MX and Dragon) had a slightly larger sensor size that RED has taken new steps to make sure that all of the cameras in the DSMC2 line-up have at a minimum "at speed" and high speed filming capabilities at maximum resolution and format size of each sensor size.

I think there are indeed new cuts of the DSMC2 Dragon Sensor Technology in 4.5K, 5K, 6K, and 8K sizes for Raven, Scarlet-W, and Weapon models.

Thanks for clarifying Phil.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

As much as I love a good conspiracy theory, this is all about sensor yield.
There's only a couple of sensors per wafer. If you are producing bigger (aka 6K) sensors, less sensors fit on a single wafer. The larger they are the more sensors don't pass QC. As an extremely simplified example: If you have 10 sensors to a wafer and 5 faults on the wafer you might have 50% yield. if the sensors are larger and you might have only 5 sensors and 5 faults, you might become unlucky and the whole wafer is trash.
If the area between 5 and 6K has a quality problem, you would have to throw away the sensor for a 6K camera and the sensors become more expensive, because you have less yield. Jarred mentioned that process when talking about producing the 8K sensors. BUT for a 5K camera they are perfectly fine if you just crop out the area by not using it.
That's where at least some of the money savings come from imho. With the Scarlet Dragon the sensor had to be perfect for 6K as well, so the sensors are more expensive because of the lower yield. But if you can use the 6K sensors which are only good enough for 5K you instantly save money.
What that means is that you don't want to activate the 6K area because it's probably no good

 

[Nick Morrison]

As much as I love a good conspiracy theory, this is all about sensor yield.
There's only a couple of sensors per wafer. If you are producing bigger (aka 6K) sensors, less sensors fit on a single wafer. The larger they are the more sensors don't pass QC. As an extremely simplified example: If you have 10 sensors to a wafer and 5 faults on the Wagner you might have 50% yield. if the sensors are larger and you might have only 5 sensors and 5 faults, you might become unlucky and the whole wafer is trash.
If the area between 5 and 6K has a quality problem, you would have to throw away the sensor for a 6K camera and the sensors become more expensive, because you have less yield. Jarred mentioned that process when talking about producing the 8K sensors. BUT for a 5K camera they are perfectly fine if you just crop out the area by not using it.
That's where at least some of the money savings come from imho. With the Scarlet Dragon the sensor had to be perfect for 6K as well, so the sensors are more expensive because of the lower yield. But if you can use the 6K sensors which are only good enough for 5K you instantly save money.
What that means is that you don't want to activate the 6K area because it's probably no good

Great explanation!

 

[Sebastian Winkels]

One thing:

I really enjoy shooting 5k WS (1:2.4) on Scarlet Dragon, as it uses the full width of the 6k sensor.

Would be so cool if Scarlet-W could do this, too.

Or maybe it does?

Otherwise, the great compression rates with Scarlet-W are very tempting...

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Sebastian, 5K WS I'm pretty sure, will be available. But 5K WS only uses 25.58mm of the width of the sensor. The whole width is only used with 6K settings.

 

[Elsie N]

As much as I love a good conspiracy theory, this is all about sensor yield.
There's only a couple of sensors per wafer. If you are producing bigger (aka 6K) sensors, less sensors fit on a single wafer. The larger they are the more sensors don't pass QC. As an extremely simplified example: If you have 10 sensors to a wafer and 5 faults on the wafer you might have 50% yield. if the sensors are larger and you might have only 5 sensors and 5 faults, you might become unlucky and the whole wafer is trash.
If the area between 5 and 6K has a quality problem, you would have to throw away the sensor for a 6K camera and the sensors become more expensive, because you have less yield. Jarred mentioned that process when talking about producing the 8K sensors. BUT for a 5K camera they are perfectly fine if you just crop out the area by not using it.
That's where at least some of the money savings come from imho. With the Scarlet Dragon the sensor had to be perfect for 6K as well, so the sensors are more expensive because of the lower yield. But if you can use the 6K sensors which are only good enough for 5K you instantly save money.
What that means is that you don't want to activate the 6K area because it's probably no good

To your point, some years ago I bought a 3 core AMD sensor at a real bargain. I read that it was actually a 4 core die and by a process you could unlock the 4th core, but it was hit or miss whether it was stable. I unlocked the 4th core on my purchase and the computer was unstable so I reverted back to the 3 core model.

This, if operable in the context of the Scarlet W 5k sensor, is a an acceptable and common practice in Silicon matters. Oh, and the 3 core AMD? I still use it occasionally... solid as a rock.

 

[Sebastian Winkels]

Patrick: 5k WS is indeed stated for Scarlet-W on the spec sheet, but the horizontal size of the image seems to refer to the 5k sensor (= active sensor area,

please correct, if I'm mistaken).


However, the Scarlet Dragon, when set to 5k WS mode, uses the full 6k width of the Dragon sensor (I actually didn't know that until I tried it out).

I really love this format and am using it for my current doc film production.

With this 6k field of view, even my good old RPZ 17-50 looks amazingly textured and sharp, especially between 24-32mm range.

I would somehow miss this feature on Scarlet-W, I guess...


Who knows, with the improved processing powers of Scarlet-W, maybe it is coming our way, too?

 

[sam karr]

Patrick: 5k WS is indeed stated for Scarlet-W on the spec sheet, but the horizontal size of the image seems to refer to the 5k sensor (= active sensor area,

please correct, if I'm mistaken).


However, the Scarlet Dragon, when set to 5k WS mode, uses the full 6k width of the Dragon sensor (I actually didn't know that until I tried it out).

I really love this format and am using it for my current doc film production.

With this 6k field of view, even my good old RPZ 17-50 looks amazingly textured and sharp, especially between 24-32mm range.

I would somehow miss this feature on Scarlet-W, I guess...


Who knows, with the improved processing powers of Scarlet-W, maybe it is coming our way, too?

Patrick is right. 6k uses 6144 pixels (30,72mm) while 5k uses 5120 pixels (25,6mm). 5KWS is 5120*2160 instead of 5120*2700 for 5KFF. So 5kWS is a smaller part of the sensor. And 6k on the scarlet-D is limited to 12fps.

 

[Elsie N]

But you get to keep your Scarlet Dragon... plus getting 50% off the accs package. It's like instead of paying you to trade in your camera as was the case for Weapons, you are being paid to keep your camera.

I'm not sure the someone who came up with this plan wasn't drunk. '-)

 

[sam karr]

But you get to keep your Scarlet Dragon... plus getting 50% off the accs package. It's like instead of paying you to trade in your camera as was the case for Weapons, you are being paid to keep your camera. I'm not sure someone who came up with this plan wasn't drunk. '-)

Well it's a nice offer. But personally I don't need 2 cameras. So I will have to sell the old one. It seems I have to wait for the new scarlet to sell my cam (because of the transfer of ownership and the special offer), that means waiting for the moment when the scarlet-D will depreciate a lot. So the money I would get by selling it better now will be compensated by the discount. Plus I just noticed that the vmount adapter is really narrow, I'm almost sure that my batteries will not fit, I already have a side handle that would work too. But the discount only applies to the whole package. Having to spend 15000€ (the price in europe with taxes) for the discount package offer, then finding a buyer for a convenable price to get some money back, buying new batteries. I personally would take a trade in instead. But well, there 's no choice. Just to say that the deal is not obvious for everybody.

 

[Elsie N]

Well it's a nice offer. But personally I don't need 2 cameras. So I will have to sell the old one. It seems I have to wait for the new scarlet to sell my cam (because of the transfer of ownership and the special offer), that means waiting for the moment when the scarlet-D will depreciate a lot. So the money I would get by selling it better now will be compensated by the discount. Plus I just noticed that the vmount adapter is really narrow, I'm almost sure that my batteries will not fit, I already have a side handle that would work too. But the discount only applies to the whole package. Having to spend 15000€ (the price in europe with taxes) for the discount package offer, then finding a buyer for a convenable price to get some money back, buying new batteries. I personally would take a trade in instead. But well, there 's no choice. Just to say that the deal is not obvious for everybody.

Duly noted.

 

[sam karr]

Duly noted.

Is there any meaning with the yellow thing?

 

[Elsie N]

Is there any meaning with the yellow thing?

No, it's just my way of pointing out the part of the post I am responding to. I don't like to leave out the rest of the post as that becomes "taking my comments out of context". By leaving the entire contents available for a viewer to read, then the poster I am answering can get a fair hearing by a reader if I've misread what they said.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Isn't calling the Scarlet-W a 5K camera just the correct way of handling how it operates? The Scarlet-D was marketed as 6K which was confusing since it could only do it in 12fps. The Red cameras are primarily motion picture cameras so the marketing for Scarlet-W focus on it being 5K. The 6K stills mode will be a bonus, but this camera aren't primarily for stills. For the same price of the Scarlet-W you can get much better cameras for still photography. If I were in the stills business, I would rather go with a medium format digital camera than using a Scarlet-W for still photography. Even the 5D has a FF sensor comparable to the Dragon 8K Vista Vision.

So, Scarlet-W might do 6K stills as well, but the marketing and branding of what resolution Scarlet-W works under is better now than on the Scarlet-D.

 

[sam karr]

What about the transfer of ownership when I'll receive the scarlet-W and sell my scarlet-D? If I take the offer for scarlet dragon owners, the offer is dead for this camera even after transfering the ownership to a new owner right? So I guess I have to take that into account too. A camera without any path will be less saleable and for a cheaper price. Or is the upgrade path resetting after the transfer?

 

[Patrick Grossien]

I believe the camera is marked as executed and no future upgrade will be possible with it. But that doesn't matter in my mind, because someone who will buy a scarlet d with the w on the horizon doesn't necessarily factor in the upgrade path.o
If it were resetting, the cameras could be handed down just to make a bargain for the upgrade packages.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Might be worth reminding people that what we got for upgrading our Scarlet-Xs was:

1) a better price by $3,000 - the upgrade price was scheduled to go to from $9500 to $12,500 after the show - AND
2) we now get a $2500 discount on the new Scarlet-W

In addition, the new package comes with a mini-mag side module - which is pretty much the only way forward with RED, so you'll need one eventually. This would cost you $1500 to add to your current Scarlet-Dragon.

So, to be fair, it's not like we didn't get some good value from RED for our "leap of faith" back in April.