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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet Vs. Cinema

Think of the fixed as a pro cine grade programmable remote control servo zoom with a free camera attached. You could not buy a similar quality aftermarket zoom as cheap as this camera brain. Buy one of each if you need interchangeable lenses too.
 
Matthew D. Tierney said:
If anyone has the time I'd be interested also in the logic behind a fixed lens system.

For indies, or people on a tight budget, it obviously means theres no room for experimentation with different lens types.

Is the Scarlet an ideal tool for teaching cinematography? Would you say this fixed lens system limits that in some way?

I was considering an AF100 which is obviously limited by the resolution, but on the other hand can offer a lot by way of interchangeable lens.
Click to expand...

Some on Red User have a notion that the fixed lens Scarlet will just be a camera used by hobbyists and low-budget indies. IMO that notion is very shortsighted. In the hands of experienced professionals the fixed lens Scarlet will be a potent production tool.

Red User is over-weighted with cine style users and those hopeful of working in that end of the industry. However if you analyze the overall motion media industry you'll find that in terms of annual production totals, the EFP style portion of this industry dwarfs the cine style industry. That being said, the EFP style industry uses large amounts of 2/3" detachable zoom lens cameras (where the zoom lenses are rarely changed), and also for certain projects a lot of 1/2" and 1/3" sensor fixed zoom lens cameras. In short, the largest motion camera purchasing market is the EFP market - specifically the non-hardlined (mobile) EFP market - and that's the kind of camera the fixed lens Scarlet is, a 2/3" sensor, fixed zoom lens camera. It also has the ergonomics, size, and EFP-friendly features that simply scream out "My highest and best use is for mobile EFP work!".

Can someone use the fixed lens Scarlet for cine style production? Yes - with some workarounds and limitations. But if what someone does is cine style production exclusively, then my suggestion would be to buy the Cinema version.

Keeping in mind the above stated mobile EFP uses of fixed lens Scarlet, the list of production genres for the mobile EFP industry is a long list indeed - reality, sports, documentaries of various kinds, some music, wildlife, food, cultures, travel, business media, and on and on. What are the advantages of a fixed lens system in those mobile types of production? Locations and focal length needs change rapidly, so changing out lenses is impractical - you don't have time or simply miss a lot of shots. A single wide to long focal length zoom is the best choice. Fixed lens Scarlet has internal ND filters that are way useful in a run and gun environment.

Focusing needs in a mobile EFP environment change rapidly, from manual one minute to auto-focus the next. Fixed lens Scarlet provides that needed flexibility. Iris needs also change from minute to minute in a run and gun environment. Fixed lens Scarlet also has manual or auto-iris select-ability.

Framing needs in a run and gun environment change by the minute. There is almost never any time to walk to each framing as you would in a detachable lens cine style production scenario. In mobile EFP, shots must be re-framed (and re-focused, and re-irised) very quickly and continually. Walking to framings will lose you the shot - or in many scenarios is impossible, or could be dangerous to your health (sports, wildlife, war, etc.) - thus a fixed zoom lens.

Add in a good 2x extender and wide converter, which can be changed out quickly to lengthen focal length or widen field of view, and the tool kit is nearly complete. The last items would be a good short shotgun mic and a good dual wireless mic system as needed.

Strictly cine style shooters who look down on mobile EFP shooters would be shocked if they were thrown for a day into a mobile EFP production environment. They would gain a healthy respect for the demands and individual skill sets necessary for professional EFP style work.

Will fixed lens Scarlet be an ideal tool for teaching straight cine style production work? Ideal no - but good for learning some cine style skills because remember, fixed lens Scarlet can be an all-manual camera. Will fixed lens Scarlet be an ideal camera for teaching and doing mobile EFP style work? In my opinion the answer to that is "Absolutely".

I'm a 30+ year motion media industry veteran who does broadcast network and cable network productions, and still photography - and I'm buying multiple Epic, but also multiple Fixed Lens Scarlet. IMO the Fixed Lens Scarlet will sell extensively to the mobile EFP industry, moderately to the cine style industry (as a B-camera for specialty applications), and most longtime pro shooters (no matter what their industry) will have at least one fixed lens Scarlet in their kit.

In these times of media convergence the old division of "I'm strictly a cine guy", "I'm strictly an EFP guy", and "I'm strictly a still photographer" are rapidly disintegrating. The broader and deeper your skill sets and equipment options, the greater chance you give yourself to not only survive, but flourish in a demanding economy.

Horses for courses, round pegs in round holes, square pegs in square holes, etc, etc, etc.

I hope this input helps you Matthew...
 
Steve Gibby said:
Some on Red User have a notion that the fixed lens Scarlet will just be a camera used by hobbyists and low-budget indies. IMO that notion is very shortsighted. In the hands of experienced professionals the fixed lens Scarlet will be a potent production tool.

Red User is over-weighted with cine style users and those hopeful of working in that end of the industry. However if you analyze the overall motion media industry you'll find that in terms of annual production totals, the EFP style portion of this industry dwarfs the cine style industry. That being said, the EFP style industry uses large amounts of 2/3" detachable zoom lens cameras (where the zoom lenses are rarely changed), and also for certain projects a lot of 1/2" and 1/3" sensor fixed zoom lens cameras. In short, the largest motion camera purchasing market is the EFP market - specifically the non-hardlined (mobile) EFP market - and that's the kind of camera the fixed lens Scarlet is, a 2/3" sensor, fixed zoom lens camera. It also has the ergonomics, size, and EFP-friendly features that simply scream out "My highest and best use is for mobile EFP work!".

Can someone use the fixed lens Scarlet for cine style production? Yes - with some workarounds and limitations. But if someone does is cine style production exclusively, then my suggestion would be to buy the Cinema version.

Keeping in mind the above stated mobile EFP uses of fixed lens Scarlet, the list of production genres for the mobile EFP industry is a long list indeed - reality, sports, documentaries of various kinds, some music, wildlife, food, cultures, travel, business media, and on and on. What are the advantages of a fixed lens system in those mobile types of production? Locations and focal length needs change rapidly, so changing out lenses is impractical - you don't have time or simply miss a lot of shots. A single wide to long focal length zoom is the best choice. Fixed lens Scarlet has internal ND filters that are way useful in a run and gun environment.

Focusing needs in a mobile EFP environment change rapidly, from manual one minute to auto-focus the next. Fixed lens Scarlet provides that needed flexibility. Iris needs also change from minute to minute in a run and gun environment. Fixed lens Scarlet also has manual or auto-iris select-ability.

Framing needs in a run and gun environment change by the minute. There is almost never any time to walk to each framing as you would in a detachable lens cine style production scenario. In mobile EFP shots must be re-framed (and re-focused, and re-irised) very quickly and continually. Walking to framings will lose you the shot - or in many scenarios is impossible, or could be dangerous to your health (sports, wildlife, war, etc.) - thus a fixed zoom lens.

Add in a good 2x extender and wide converter, which can be changed out quickly to lengthen focal length or widen field of view, and the tool kit is nearly complete. The last items would be a good short shotgun mic and a good dual wireless mic system as needed.

Strictly cine style shooters who look down on mobile EFP shooters would be shocked if they were thrown for a day into a mobile EFP production environment. They would gain a healthy respect for the demands and individual skill sets necessary for professional EFP style work.

Will fixed lens Scarlet be an ideal tool for teaching straight cine style production work? Ideal no - but good for learning some cine style skills because remember, fixed lens Scarlet can be an all-manual camera. Will fixed lens Scarlet be an ideal camera for teaching and doing mobile EFP style work? In my opinion the answer to that is "Absolutely".

I'm a 30+ year motion media industry veteran who does broadcast network and cable network productions, and still photography - and I'm buying multiple Epic, but also multiple Fixed Lens Scarlet. IMO the Fixed Lens Scarlet will sell extensively to the mobile EFP industry, moderately to the cine style industry (as a B-camera for specialty applications), and most longtime pro shooters (no matter what their industry) will have at least one fixed lens Scarlet in their kit.

In these times of media convergence the old division of "I'm strictly a cine guy", "I'm strictly an EFP guy", and "I'm strictly a still photographer" are rapidly disintegrating. The broader and deeper your skill sets and equipment options, the greater chance you give yourself to not only survive, but flourish in a demanding economy.

Horses for courses, round pegs in round holes, square pegs in square holes, etc, etc, etc.

I hope this input helps you Matthew...
Click to expand...

Great Post Steve. I appreciate your insight into this.

I have operated RED cameras a couple times in the past and quietly followed the forum for a few years but am finally in a position to become a RED owner, upgrading from the HVX200.

I have been back and forth between going with the Scarlet Fixed and the new Epic-S, and although a big part of the final decision will go down to final specs, availability and prices, I have wondered about the ease of use of the Epic-S for run and gun type situations. I do a lot of Corporate and Product Video Work both on location and in studio. So whatever camera I decide on will have to be able to work well in fast shooting environments.

Do you think there is much of a benefit to going to the Epic-S over the Scarlet fixed for this type of work I do considering a large difference in price point?

One thought was to purchase a Scarlet Fixed + Modules and Accessories this year and then an Epic-S in 2011 when more funds are in as well as when availability is higher for the camera, at which point I would be able to use the scarlet fixed as B-Camera on two camera shoots or on projects that are run and gun style, while the Epic would be used in more studio and higher end applications.

Thoughts?

Thanks for you help.
 
Steve Gibby said:
Red User is over-weighted with cine style users

Strictly cine style shooters who look down on mobile EFP shooters would be shocked if they were thrown for a day into a mobile EFP production environment. They would gain a healthy respect for the demands and individual skill sets necessary for professional EFP style work.
Click to expand...

You've got quite a beef with us cine shooters. For the record, I've never spoken badly about the fixed-lens Scarlet -- in fact, this may be the camera I buy someday. There has traditionally ALWAYS been a use for smaller, more mobile, and simpler camera rigs in motion picture production for certain shooting situations, and I don't mean "rare cases", I mean any number of set-ups in a typical shooting day depending on the nature of the show.
 
Steve... I usually try to refer to You and David when I see people need advice, and I think the "fight" between the "Cine" and "other styles" thing has long been history...

It is not strange that quite a few of the users here - myself included - work primarely within genres where 35mm aqusition has been common...

But the "Look down on the EFP shooters" thingy is soooo 2007 by now :-))

Remember: there came a bunch of dslr's and made 35mm shooting penetrate even more areas than RED initially did.

... and my guess is that the fixed 2/3" Scarlet is the cam everyone will want, for some of us there's a "too" connected to that sentence, for others, it'll just do fine...

Anyhow.


Happy to see you post here again!
 
Agreed, the fixed lens Scarlet will be a formidable tool in the hands of people like David and Gibby - and Gunleik too, I'm sure ( :
 
My current dream camera is still an interchangeable 3K DSMC S35 at a professional DSLR price range ($6-8K). A 2/3 inch camera is only a DSMC so much, considering there are no still lenses currently built for that format.

I'd buy that camera from day one, and probably will still buy a scarlet 2/3s, but would rarely use it for stills, and mostly just green screen/compositing to go along with Canon's affordable S35 motion DSLRs. It's a bummer that most 'still/videographers' will still have to choose between sensor size and codec/raw. So close, yet so far away...

2/3s has been a standard in cinema for a long time, with 16mm, but not really ever in the still world. Really was hoping for that magical DSMC. Maybe next generation of sensors in 3 years...
 
Steven Swigart said:
My current dream camera is still an interchangeable 3K DSMC S35 at a professional DSLR price range ($6-8K). A 2/3 inch camera is only a DSMC so much, considering there are no still lenses currently built for that format.

I'd buy that camera from day one, and probably will still buy a scarlet 2/3s, but would rarely use it for stills, and mostly just green screen/compositing to go along with Canon's affordable S35 motion DSLRs. It's a bummer that most 'still/videographers' will still have to choose between sensor size and codec/raw. So close, yet so far away...

2/3s has been a standard in cinema for a long time, with 16mm, but not really ever in the still world. Really was hoping for that magical DSMC. Maybe next generation of sensors in 3 years...
Click to expand...

There is a sizable group of people shooting 16mm vintage lenses on m4/3 format still cameras. Good glass is good glass regardless of format.
IMO the lower resolution of a 3k camera is more of a limiting factor for stills use than the sensor size if one wants large prints.

Samples of c-mount lenses on m4/3 cameras
http://www.flickr.com/groups/c-mount_/

Samples of Leica D-lux 3 photos ( a slightly smaller than 2/3" sensor)

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=d-lux 3&w=32886227@N00#page=18
 
David Rasberry said:
There is a sizable group of people shooting 16mm vintage lenses on m4/3 format still cameras. Good glass is good glass regardless of format.
IMO the lower resolution of a 3k camera is more of a limiting factor for stills use than the sensor size if one wants large prints.

Samples of c-mount lenses on m4/3 cameras
http://www.flickr.com/groups/c-mount_/

Samples of Leica D-lux 3 photos ( a slightly smaller than 2/3" sensor)

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=d-lux 3&w=32886227@N00#page=18
Click to expand...

Hi David, thanks for the info. I agree that the 4/3s format is very viable, as there is already a great number of high quality affordable still lenses built for the system. From an 8mm Fisheye to a 20mm 1.7, and many other quality still lenses under $1k. I currently work for a small magazine where being able to take motion and stills will be part of my daily routine. Being able to have a wide range of still lenses where I can easily go from a 180 degree field of view to a shallow DOF at a 'normal' field of view is important to my work, and now expected from my editors.

Still I love what Red is doing, as Epic-S is an AMAZING camera at an unbelievable price. Just a bit too much for my budget. I'm not complaining, and am a big fan of Red. Just sad to see the Scarlet S35 leave reality for now. And while the AF100 does not have a good codec, it might be the only camera on the market in its price range with the features I'm looking for. Maybe I'll put a sticker on it that says 'would rather have a red'. :)

I have built a personal collection of Canon mount Sigmas, and I absolutely love the quality of those lenses. The 10-20mm 3.5 is amazing, as is the 50mm 1.4. Sigma really is amazing glass (period), but especially for the price point.
 
Steven Swigart said:
Hi David, thanks for the info. I agree that the 4/3s format is very viable, as there is already a great number of high quality affordable still lenses built for the system. From an 8mm Fisheye to a 20mm 1.7, and many other quality still lenses under $1k. I currently work for a small magazine where being able to take motion and stills will be part of my daily routine. Being able to have a wide range of still lenses where I can easily go from a 180 degree field of view to a shallow DOF at a 'normal' field of view is important to my work, and now expected from my editors.

Still I love what Red is doing, as Epic-S is an AMAZING camera at an unbelievable price. Just a bit too much for my budget. I'm not complaining, and am a big fan of Red. Just sad to see the Scarlet S35 leave reality for now. And while the AF100 does not have a good codec, it might be the only camera on the market in its price range with the features I'm looking for. Maybe I'll put a sticker on it that says 'would rather have a red'. :)

I have built a personal collection of Canon mount Sigmas, and I absolutely love the quality of those lenses. The 10-20mm 3.5 is amazing, as is the 50mm 1.4. Sigma really is amazing glass (period), but especially for the price point.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a DSLR might be the better choice for now. If you are shooting mostly things like interview videos for web magazine publication they do a decent job. It is what they were meant for. You will be able to put a Canon mount on the 2/3" Scarlet interchangeable model if you chose that route. The smaller sensor won't have the ultra-shallow DOF of a 35mm camera though even with the Canon lenses due to the crop factor. Unless you shoot your still zooms like variable primes though, they don't necessarily perform so well for motion use.
 
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. But I'm looking forward to the day where I can have the RAW workflow, as I'm eager to incorporate it.

Wonder if Red will ever make a more 'photo centric' camera on the DSMC spectrum.

While 4K will be the future of large screens, and eventually the living room, small screens will be the future of common video consumption.

On a side note, I still do some small commercial freelance cinematography work on the side, where I could see myself renting an Epic-S, but I would not be the colorist or editor, so I wouldn't get to do that part of the fun. :)
 
Can i mount any kind of lenses to the Scarlet Cinema (interchangeable)? I mean with a converter for example canon, nikon, red one or red epic lenses, or m43 lenses? Or just the red mini primes?
 
Jeney Ákos said:
Can i mount any kind of lenses to the Scarlet Cinema (interchangeable)? I mean with a converter for example canon, nikon, red one or red epic lenses, or m43 lenses? Or just the red mini primes?
Click to expand...

Scarlet Cinema will use the same interchangeable lens mounts as Epic. So Canon and Nikon mounts with electronic lens controls will be available. The standard PL mount for cine lenses will work and Red has their own mini-Red mount for their Scarlet primes. C-mount and B4 mount too have been listed as options that will be available at some point. Scarlet/Epic don't use adapters to a standard mount, they use interchangeable lens mounts for each type.
 
Jeney Ákos said:
Can i mount any kind of lenses to the Scarlet Cinema (interchangeable)? I mean with a converter for example canon, nikon, red one or red epic lenses, or m43 lenses? Or just the red mini primes?
Click to expand...

Yes. Red states they will make smart canon and nikon mounts, and a few third parties will probably make dumb mounts.

Lenses are developed to be optimal for a certain sensor size or certain film plane. Which is why Canon and Nikon both make lenses for FF and S35 sized sensors. If you want the widest wide, most likely you would need to have a lens specifically designed for the film plane, or a similar film plane, to the one you would be using.
 
Steven Swigart said:
Yes. Red states they will make smart canon and nikon mounts, and a few third parties will probably make dumb mounts.

Lenses are developed to be optimal for a certain sensor size or certain film plane. Which is why Canon and Nikon both make lenses for FF and S35 sized sensors. If you want the widest wide, most likely you would need to have a lens specifically designed for the film plane, or a similar film plane, to the one you would be using.
Click to expand...

That's an issue for me too. I'll probably end up buying a Scarlet Fixed, but I'm giving serious consideration to the Scarlet Cinema with a Nikon mount, to take advantage of all my top-end Nikon glass. But of course, the crop factor is horrendous (3.8x), so I'll need to buy something new at the wide end. Which means my critical question will be: how do I go about getting an ultra-wide zoom (14-24mm 35mm FF equivalent), in a Nikon mount, for the 2/3" sensor?
 
And what lenses do you recommend to achieve really wide zoom? And wide angle?
 
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