Scarlet Vs. Cinema

[Jesper Sichlau]

If I was shooting the church productions you mentioned, I'd use the Fixed Lens Scarlet with the setup I described that you quoted above, and add in a wide converter and 2x extender to the kit. It would be a mobile kit with good on-camera shotgun and dual wireless sound, on-camera light, a shoulder rig, a lightweight fluid head tripod, and with the extender and doubler you'd have a huge range of focal lengths and field of view options. If you need to hardline audio into the camera, that can be easily achieved with Scarlet.

Another way to approach it, is by using the Interchangeable Scarlet with a Nikon or Canon mount and use DSLR zoom lenses. This way you would be able to get cheap good lenses with autofocus.

 

[Myles Thompson]

I'm completely sold on getting a fixed Scarlet for documentary work.

 

[Michael Olsen]

I'm completely sold on getting a fixed Scarlet for documentary work.

Welcome to the forum, Myles.

It's looking to be a really exciting and extremely versatile camera. I can't wait to see what ends up being shot with it!

 

[Steven Hammer]

If I was shooting the church productions you mentioned, I'd use the Fixed Lens Scarlet with the setup I described that you quoted above, and add in a wide converter and 2x extender to the kit. It would be a mobile kit with good on-camera shotgun and dual wireless sound, on-camera light, a shoulder rig, a lightweight fluid head tripod, and with the extender and doubler you'd have a huge range of focal lengths and field of view options. If you need to hardline audio into the camera, that can be easily achieved with Scarlet.

In the spirit of "there is no stupid question," I'd like to learn more about dual wireless sound (what works on a modest budget, what components are necessary?).

 

[Steve Gibby]

Another way to approach it, is by using the Interchangeable Scarlet with a Nikon or Canon mount and use DSLR zoom lenses. This way you would be able to get cheap good lenses with autofocus.

True - minus the autofocus that's the way I've been using Red One since I took delivery of my first Red camera in August 2007. In that time period I've shot extensive run and gun with Red One using those 35mm stills lens setups (mostly Nikon, but some Canon too) - and I've become very quick at manually focusing those 35mm still lenses on Red One.

The problem with 35mm still lenses on Red One (and Epic and Scarlet) in a run and gun environment is focal length, while still retaining lightness and mobility. My mobile run and gun kit lenses with Red One have been all Nikon (and Nikon mount) - a Tokina 11-16 f2.8, Nikon 17-35 f2.8, Nikon 28-70 f2.8, and Nikon 80-200 f2.8. All filtering has been via high quality screw-on filters (no matte box, to keep weight/size down). Fortunately each of those lenses uses 77mm screw-on filters, so just one simple filter pouch goes out in the field with me.

To my knowledge there are no Nikon or Canon 35mm still zooms with constant f2.8 zooms which cover the whole range of focal lengths from wide angle to mid-telephoto. Thus the need to carry 2, 3, or sometimes 4 different zooms with you and change them out quickly and constantly - along with screw-on ND filters.

But the Fixed Lens Scarlet has internal ND filters, the 8x zoom covers a 35mm equivalent of 28mm to 224mm - wide to mid-telephoto - all in one compact zoom lens which is closely matched to Scarlet's sensor. Plus you can quickly attach/detach a wide converter or 2x extender to the 8x zoom when needed - easily widening the field of view or getting yourself extra focal length.

In summary of the above, I'm thinking that for pure run and gun someone using Fixed Lens Scarlet will be able to work fast with a light package, easily achieve a variety of focal lengths, and have the speed of internal ND filters. Conversely with the interchangeable Scarlet the constant need to change between 35mm still zooms, and the need to carry all of those lenses around will limit mobility somewhat and a necessarily slow your work down.

Having done run and gun for years now with Red One using 35mm stills lenses, I can tell you that it obviously can be done effectively - but personally I really look forward to the greater ease of run and gun with Fixed Lens Scarlet.

David Rasberry and some others will approach mobile production with Scarlet using the interchangeable Scarlet and good quality 16mm zooms. That's definitely a viable alternative, and a matter of personal choice.

The cool thing is that we have a lot of choices in tailoring our equipment and setups to what we shoot. Fun times ahead guys...

 

[Steve Gibby]

In the spirit of "there is no stupid question," I'd like to learn more about dual wireless sound (what works on a modest budget, what components are necessary?).

With Red One for run and gun I've regularly used a Sennheiser dual receiver on the smart side of the camera, mounted on the smart side of the camera via a small custom L bracket. In tandem with that for ambient audio, I've been using a Sennheiser 416 (or occasionally ME66) short shotgun mounted on top of the camera.

Audio manufacturers are a matter of taste. Some people love Sennheiser, some love Audio Technica, and on and on. You'll find a wide range of prices and performance in shotguns and wireless mic systems.

Check out some of the audio threads here on Red User and other professional production forums. Get a feel for who uses what in what type of crew situation, style of production, and genre of content.

If you're on a tight budget, you can usually find well-maintained used audio equipment here on Red User, and on some other boards. You can also buy used audio equipment from rental companies like Bexel and others.

With Scarlet we'll need to fully field test the cameras before we can figure out what may be the best on-camera audio setups for run and gun. As small as the camera is you don't want to then make it huge with a ton of accessories. But having a good short shotgun (for ambient audio), and a wireless receiver (for interviews, talent, etc.) on the camera will be necessary for most run and gun production.

Basically wireless audio systems come in UHF and VHF. The UHF ones are more expensive - but worth the expense. They generally have greater range, better quality of audio, and more channel selections. Kits come with a receiver, transmitter, and mic, or for dual systems you get two transmitters, 2 mics, etc. The small wireless receiver can be mounted on the camera. The small wireless transmitters are clipped onto your interviewees and/or talent. Caution: cheap wireless systems can be OK for some low-level applications, but IMO audio is an area you want to get the best equipment you can afford.

I've kept the above info simple to give you an overview. Hope it helps get you started...

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

True - minus the autofocus

Why not?

 

[San Toro]

Hi Jannard is this right?: "The Red Scarlet with its 2/3" sensor is not giving such a shallow depth of field as the Alexa or F3 "
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xd...pgrading-original-ex-1-cam-suggestions-2.html

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

Hi Jannard is this right?: "The Red Scarlet with its 2/3" sensor is not giving such a shallow depth of field as the Alexa or F3 "
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xd...pgrading-original-ex-1-cam-suggestions-2.html

No the sensor is smaller then the S35 sensor size of Red One, Epic, Alexa of the F3. The Scarlets (Fixed 8x Zoom and Interchangeable) are both 2/3" cameras with a DOF similar to 16mm/S16. But look at it another way, the only thing that separates the "shallow" DOF from the "deep" DOF is 2.5 stops. If you were to achieve the same DOF as on the Epic. A f2.8 setup on the Fixed would be similar to f5.6 on the Epic. This is mighty practical in low-light situations. With a S35-sized sensor you would need more light to be able to get things in focus, but with the Fixed you both get the coveted DOF and you might not need as much light as with a S35 sensor camera. DOF is a little overrated. The Scarlets and Epics from Red offer things much more valuable then Shallow DOF.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Why not?

If you re-read my post referencing "minus the autofocus". The entire sentence reads: "True - minus the autofocus that's the way I've been using Red One since I took delivery of my first Red camera in August 2007."

Red One obviously doesn't have autofocus capability, and that's simply what I was saying - except for not having autofocus I've been shooting Red One all along as you described, with 35mm still zooms. Scarlet does have autofocus capability. For motion capture work AF was an EFP industry development for the fixed zoom lens EFP cameras of the '90's - and was also developed in the still photo industry for DSLR cameras.

In using my Epic cameras with Canon and Nikon lenses (and Red Electronic Lenses when they're available), I'll definitely maximize the camera and lens auto features. My DSLR system is a Canon 5D, and I have a wide range of Canon L series zooms which I use on the 5D. Those same Canon zooms will be used on Epic, as will the many Nikon zooms I have. When Red makes their electronic zoom lenses, I'll use those on Epic in lieu of the Canon and Nikon lenses. The Red Electronic Lenses will be designed specifically for use on Red cameras, with optics and motors made to dance perfectly on them.

Do EFP professionals sometimes use autofocus in their work? Yes, not with B4 2/3" camera systems, but certainly with 1/2" and 1/3" cameras, especially fixed lens cameras. In super-rapid run and gun environments camera setups regularly switch from full manual, to part manual/part auto, to full auto, depending on the demands of each shot. Autofocus and auto iris are great tools for certain shots which need to be captured immediately. In shooting mobile EFP subjects with a camera that has AF features, I regularly use those AF features. When its time to go part auto or full manual for shots I quickly setup the camera that way and get the shots.

With Fixed Lens Scarlet, the auto features (AF, iris), size, fixed lens, internal ND, audio capabilities (balanced, etc.), and many other features really define the camera as an excellent mobile production camera. I'll still obviously use my Epic cameras with 35mm still zooms for mobile production when I need higher frame rates and resolutions, but the Fixed Lens Scarlet will be my "go everywhere, constant use, hyper-mobile" camera.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

If you re-read my post referencing "minus the autofocus". The entire sentence reads: "True - minus the autofocus that's the way I've been using Red One since I took delivery of my first Red camera in August 2007."

Okay, I simply misread it. I guess I'm used to a whole lot of commas in my language unlike the english/american where the commas seem to be very rare. But glad we're on the same page.

 

[Tyler Bourns]

Glad my insight worked for you...happy to help.

As you know, I'm one of the guys who have used Red One consistently for run and gun situations. Me and my crew's camera setups for that have been 35mm stills zooms with screw-on filters (no matte boxes), EVF (and LCD as needed), Red Drive on an ET Shock Mount, ET Mantis for shoulder work, and lightweight tripods to support the light camera setups. This camera setup is most accurately termed hybrid, and our style of using it has been non-hardlined EFP. All focusing is eye focusing by the operator hand racking lens barrels, and exposure is usually achieved quickly via zebras and histogram.

For the corporate and product video work you described that you do, IMO the fixed lens Scarlet would be excellent. I'd just use the camera's internal ND filters, the Red Shoulder Mount or ET Mantis, a wide angle converter (Red's when they make it, and until then a Century), a short shotgun, a dual wireless system, a Micro Pro on-camera light, the Red Grip with battery, and shoot to SSD (or CF). If you have long enough turnaround on the production I'd shoot Raw, but if you need a faster turnaround you may think about shooting RGB.

All the modules and accessories you buy for fixed lens Scarlet will also work on Epic. Later on if you want to go to Epic for some higher resolution corporate and product work, then I'd still consider going with 35mm stills lenses, including the new Red Electronic Lenses when they're available. Obviously Epic can be setup and used very effectively for run and gun style. Think lightness on the setup and accessories to increase mobility - nothing goes on the camera which doesn't need to be there.

A 2-camera kit of Epic S and Fixed lens Scarlet would be a very potent professional kit in the hands of a talented and experienced shooter.

Hope this info helps you

Thanks Steve, yes that does help a lot, especially your recommendation on the shooting package accessories. Exactly the insight I was looking for. Talk to you soon!

 

[Steven Hammer]

I've kept the above info simple to give you an overview. Hope it helps get you started...

Fantastic! Thanks!

 

[San Toro]

Thank you Jesper!!

 

[Samuel Burton]

I'm thinking that the 8x optical zoom should have plenty of focal range for a church environment, unless its a giant cathedral or meeting hall and you need real tight head shots of audience. The Scarlet 8x zoom is the 35mm equivalent of 28mm to 224mm, which is an excellent wide-to-long zoom. For extra long focal length needs you could easily and quickly attach/detach a 2x extender to the front of the 8x, thus making it a 16x zoom, or a 35mm equivalent of 56mm to 448mm. In using a 2x you'd lose some light to the sensor, so if you went that route you'd need to have the church lights relatively bright.

Initially Red said they'd be making a wide converter and a 2x extender for use with Fixed Lens Scarlet. That's on hold right now, but I believe Red will eventually make them. The advantage of Red making those adaptors would be that they would be engineered and matched really well with the 8x. Having a wide converter and 2x will seriously enhance the capability and utility of the Fixed Lens Scarlet. I think most people who buy the camera will want those converters for that reason. Until Red makes their own converter lenses, Century makes some very good ones which can be adapter for use on Scarlet.

If you went with the Cinema version of Scarlet, you'd need a kit of lenses and also need to change them quickly as you need a longer focal length zoom, mid-length zoom, and a wide zoom. You'd be changing lenses constantly. In a fast moving shooting scenario that's not real practical for the type os shooting you described.

If I was shooting the church productions you mentioned, I'd use the Fixed Lens Scarlet with the setup I described that you quoted above, and add in a wide converter and 2x extender to the kit. It would be a mobile kit with good on-camera shotgun and dual wireless sound, on-camera light, a shoulder rig, a lightweight fluid head tripod, and with the extender and doubler you'd have a huge range of focal lengths and field of view options. If you need to hardline audio into the camera, that can be easily achieved with Scarlet.

Hope this helps...

Yes it does - thanks very much. Our current cameras are Canon XH A1/G1s, so my experience is limited to that. The Scarlet has potential to get us into really good quality for the same money as these prosumer type models from the other companies.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Think 16mm film camera.

Scarlet 3K has 2.28 times more resolution than 1080P. However, if it were me and I was shooting "a serious TV show or feature", I stand by my statement that if you have the budget, you should shoot it on a RED ONE or an EPIC. If you don't have the budget, Scarlet is the answer. And 3K does up-rez to 4K... when 1080P won't.

Jim

Yes, that Fixed Lens Scarlet reminds me of the awesome Canon Scoopic. I used to own one back in the 20th Century. And while not ideal, scaling up a 3K image on a 4K projector should look quite nice. I bet Felix looks really good on a 40 foot screen.

 

[Katty Galloo]

Not sure they will beam it on 4K in the near future. All cinema beamers are 2K wright now and they do just fine. Also might reconsider the transportation for the data. at 4K its huge. Aldoug it will get bigger in the future no doub. but 2K will defently do fine for low budget filmmaker. Also the size 2K is big enoug for the workflow and editing for the final result.

 

[Katty Galloo]

Hi Reduser forums, first post.

I've been trawling these forums for a while now trying to make sense of everything.

I have a question about the 3K Scarlet.

I enjoyed some of Jims comments on the Tips and Thoughts page, and the Frame Size comparisons here: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=40067&page=3

In particular these comments:

So Scarlet is 3K right? I want to understand what the logic is behind these kinds of comparisons, but then also the release of a camera that is sub-4k cinema.

Am I correct in assuming a Scarlet is capable of creating Cinema quality content, but less than the 4K standard will hardly be future-proofed, right?

Sorry if these questions have been asked before but this forum has so many posts.

Regards,

Matt

If have some toughts about the resolution issue here, in fact shooting on 3k or higher has only a huge advantage if you want to shoot for cinema, so if you shoot for cinema you will shoot a feature movie. If you can shoot a desent feature movie you will have a budget and you can hire or even buy the Epic or higher equip. If you shoot a low budget feature or short for DVD or Bleu ray 1080p will do more then you ask for cours every sensor uses the highest of his quality but the codec just scales down your image to mpeg2 or mpeg4 , do you get my point?

 

[Eric Rodemann]

If you shoot a low budget feature or short for DVD or Bleu ray 1080p will do more then you ask for cours every sensor uses the highest of his quality but the codec just scales down your image to mpeg2 or mpeg4 , do you get my point?

IMO, everyone that shoots a low budget feature still hopes they get at least a limited theatrical release, which increases DVD sales and downloads dramatically.

It may be an unrealistic hope in many cases, but I'm sure it's still there nonetheless.

 

[Kian Marandi]

Does anybody have any recommendations for good sites/books/videos on the science/theory of lenses for cinematography?

I have been using the HVX200 for a good number of years now, and have a fairly strong understanding of the various aspects of production work with a fixed-lens system.

I've taken the time to read and learn about camera tech, lighting, sound, etc., yet one thing that I have always found initimidating/humbling is how technical and advanced the discussions become when they are around the topic of lenses.

From t-stops/f-stops, how sensor size has an affect, field-of-view, distortions, the difference between cinema and still lenses... etc etc.. i dont even know where to begin!

I have a degree in Engineering, so I won't shy away from the more technical resources you may recommend. However, at the same time, if you know of resources that are informative AND a bit entertaining, all the better for what can be an overwhelming subject to a lens "rookie".

...love the fact that this forum gives me access to some incredibly talented and experienced people!

Cheers,
Kian