Scarlet Vs. Cinema

[Steve Gibby]

Great Post Steve. I appreciate your insight into this.

I have operated RED cameras a couple times in the past and quietly followed the forum for a few years but am finally in a position to become a RED owner, upgrading from the HVX200.

I have been back and forth between going with the Scarlet Fixed and the new Epic-S, and although a big part of the final decision will go down to final specs, availability and prices, I have wondered about the ease of use of the Epic-S for run and gun type situations. I do a lot of Corporate and Product Video Work both on location and in studio. So whatever camera I decide on will have to be able to work well in fast shooting environments.

Do you think there is much of a benefit to going to the Epic-S over the Scarlet fixed for this type of work I do considering a large difference in price point?

One thought was to purchase a Scarlet Fixed + Modules and Accessories this year and then an Epic-S in 2011 when more funds are in as well as when availability is higher for the camera, at which point I would be able to use the scarlet fixed as B-Camera on two camera shoots or on projects that are run and gun style, while the Epic would be used in more studio and higher end applications.

Thoughts?

Thanks for you help.

Glad my insight worked for you...happy to help.

As you know, I'm one of the guys who have used Red One consistently for run and gun situations. Me and my crew's camera setups for that have been 35mm stills zooms with screw-on filters (no matte boxes), EVF (and LCD as needed), Red Drive on an ET Shock Mount, ET Mantis for shoulder work, and lightweight tripods to support the light camera setups. This camera setup is most accurately termed hybrid, and our style of using it has been non-hardlined EFP. All focusing is eye focusing by the operator hand racking lens barrels, and exposure is usually achieved quickly via zebras and histogram.

For the corporate and product video work you described that you do, IMO the fixed lens Scarlet would be excellent. I'd just use the camera's internal ND filters, the Red Shoulder Mount or ET Mantis, a wide angle converter (Red's when they make it, and until then a Century), a short shotgun, a dual wireless system, a Micro Pro on-camera light, the Red Grip with battery, and shoot to SSD (or CF). If you have long enough turnaround on the production I'd shoot Raw, but if you need a faster turnaround you may think about shooting RGB.

All the modules and accessories you buy for fixed lens Scarlet will also work on Epic. Later on if you want to go to Epic for some higher resolution corporate and product work, then I'd still consider going with 35mm stills lenses, including the new Red Electronic Lenses when they're available. Obviously Epic can be setup and used very effectively for run and gun style. Think lightness on the setup and accessories to increase mobility - nothing goes on the camera which doesn't need to be there.

A 2-camera kit of Epic S and Fixed lens Scarlet would be a very potent professional kit in the hands of a talented and experienced shooter.

Hope this info helps you

 

[David Rasberry]

And what lenses do you recommend to achieve really wide zoom? And wide angle?

I have 16mm film lenses from 3.5mm fisheye, 5mm ultra wide but rectilinear, 8mm, 10mm, and zooms 9-50mm T2.5cooke, 12-120 T2.1 and 12-240mm T5.6 Angenieuxs. The coverage range for full frame 35mm equivalent would be roughly 14mm to 900mm. 16mm focal length is roughly equivalent to 50mm on FF35 still camera.

 

[Steve Gibby]

You've got quite a beef with us cine shooters. For the record, I've never spoken badly about the fixed-lens Scarlet -- in fact, this may be the camera I buy someday. There has traditionally ALWAYS been a use for smaller, more mobile, and simpler camera rigs in motion picture production for certain shooting situations, and I don't mean "rare cases", I mean any number of set-ups in a typical shooting day depending on the nature of the show.

My post you quoted and took exception with was for the benefit of the young man who asked some questions to start this thread (Matthew). Because I mentor a lot of new people in this industry, I regularly receive many emails and PM's from new workers who somehow feel the need to automatically put a matte box and FF on RED, and shoot cine style - when quite often in the genres they work in an EFP setup and style is better suited to what they're shooting. With my suggestions I help open their minds to alternate camera setups and usage techniques. In his written review of Jay Kelley's RED 101 DVD, Adam Wilt mentioned that the DVD segment featuring me doing my mobile EFP style camera setups and use techniques was "worth the price of the DVD alone". I'm not patting myself on the back for that, but I am saying that open-minded industry pros, regardless of their background, should be able to recognize and appreciate alternate ways of setting up and using cameras - again, horses for courses.

My comments were not pointed at you. In fact, I've always viewed you as one of the most open-minded cine style veterans I know. That's one of the reasons I invited you to be on the team of guys for the L.A. Red Test event I co-produced in December 2007 - your open minded approach to the industry. In my mind you're the kind of DP/cinematographer who whenever not constrained by outward requirements (demanding clients, unions, etc.) simply sets your ego at the door and uses whatever equipment and setup which makes the most sense. I never said you spoke badly about the Fixed Lens Scarlet - where'd you get that from?

I started into 35mm stills work in 1969, cine style 16mm film work in 1977, and both hardlined and non-hardlined EFP work in 1979. I worked in all three until by choice I left cine style work behind in the '80's, but continued in EFP work and 35mm stills work. Through the early to mid-80's I lived and worked union in Los Angeles, which helped me make the choice of working in genres of EFP and photography which would allow me to travel the world and not have to be just in the L.A. area.

Cine style production has traditionally involved hand held meters, manual iris adjustment, manual focusing by an AC or focus puller, removable cine lenses with markings, etc. If you're going to use a Scarlet in that cine style field workflow, then IMO the Scarlet Cinema is the most suitable model to use - the form and features follow function for cine work. But if you're a cine style shooter, when you use a Fixed Lens Scarlet in a run and gun environment, and use any or all of the multiple auto functions (AF, iris, etc.), eye focus by operator (no AC), zebras, etc., then in actuality you're doing a non-hardlined EFP style of shooting, on a largely non-hardlined EFP form and function camera - Fixed Lens Scarlet.

I don't "have a beef" with cine shooters - I have a beef with cine shooters who present a superiority attitude toward EFP shooters and still photographers. That's not you at all Dave - but surely you've noticed that tendency in others in this industry over the years. Respect is a 2-way street - we all need to give respect, and receive respect.

At the end of my long post I noted that the previous division lines of between the image shooting industry (cine, EFP, stills) have been disintegrating. IMO that trend will continue and accelerate.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Steve... I usually try to refer to You and David when I see people need advice, and I think the "fight" between the "Cine" and "other styles" thing has long been history...

It is not strange that quite a few of the users here - myself included - work primarely within genres where 35mm aqusition has been common...

But the "Look down on the EFP shooters" thingy is soooo 2007 by now )

Remember: there came a bunch of dslr's and made 35mm shooting penetrate even more areas than RED initially did.

... and my guess is that the fixed 2/3" Scarlet is the cam everyone will want, for some of us there's a "too" connected to that sentence, for others, it'll just do fine...

Anyhow.


Happy to see you post here again!

Good to hear from you Gunleik...

I explained my position further in my last post to David. I hear what you're saying - but I'm like a poster child for media convergence and convergence of shooting styles. As an invited attendee to the very first camera specifications meeting on the Red One camera - on December 14, 2005 at Oakley headquarters - I've always believed in cameras with broad utility, and workers with commensurately broad skill sets.

I see a lot of the young workers in this industry using the 35mm DSLR cameras decked out with all the accessories to make them (in their minds) a "true cinematographer", and get the "Holy Grail" of shallow DOF - when the genres of production many of them work in are quite often better suited for a camera like fixed lens Scarlet, and a mobile EFP style of usage.

I said in my first post that IMO nearly every professional, no matter what style they shoot in, will want a Fixed Lens Scarlet in their kit - so we are in agreement on that.

I'm not into the "us and them" mind set - never have been, and never will be. But as I previously stated, respect is a 2-way street.

IMO new workers in the image shooting industry need to hear about a wide variety of shooting styles, equipment setups, and technologies. That way they can form educated opinions on what areas of the industry they want to work in, what camera possibilities are, and hopefully launch into a fruitful career. That's why I took the time to give to give the young man (Matthew) my suggestions.

BTW - though I don't post here as often as I used to (busy work schedule) - but I do read posts here often. I've really enjoyed and learned a lot from some of your recent posts about post production with R3D files. That's what boards like this are all about - a place to learn, and share concepts, experiences, and suggestions.

 

[Steve Gibby]

How many ACs will it take to operate a scarlet?

I think that's Steve's point...

I could be wrong:undecided:

Yes, that was one of my points, as I just explained further. You're a longtime industry veteran, and like me, you know to use the camera, style, and camera setup which best suits each production, or portion thereof.

This board is functioning as it should. Everyone isn't going to agree on things - but its great that we have a good forum to express ourselves about Red products and usage.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I get where you are coming from, Steve, really. And I agree with all of your points, but I just want you to be clear that the advantages of some of these new lightweight, mobile tools are not lost on cinema shooters.

 

[Matthew D. Tierney]

Thanks for the posts Steve

 

[Liam Hall]

A 2-camera kit of Epic S and Fixed lens Scarlet would be a very potent professional kit in the hands of a talented and experienced shooter.

That's exactly what I'm going to run with. I'll be adding the Canon mount as I've got a bag full of those lenses already. For bigger and more complex productions there's always the rental house...

Also, I think it's worth saying, the insight from both Steve and David in this thread and across RedUser is invaluable. It's the internet at its best. I'd like to buy you both a beer someday.

 

[G Lap]

..........Also, I think it's worth saying, the insight from both Steve and David in this thread and across RedUser is invaluable. It's the internet at its best. I'd like to buy you both a beer someday.

x2. Very interesting posts here Steve, and your's and David's across the forum too.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I get where you are coming from, Steve, really. And I agree with all of your points, but I just want you to be clear that the advantages of some of these new lightweight, mobile tools are not lost on cinema shooters.

Its all good Dave. I won't be the slightest bit surprised if most cinema shooters also have a Fixed Lens Scarlet in their personal kits. The cool thing is that now we're increasingly getting these flexible new tools to round out our kits. At its price point, even for someone who routinely rents their equipment or has it provided, owning a Fixed Lens Scarlet makes good sense as a "go anywhere" mobile tool.

I know you're always a guy who loves the availability of broad options in equipment. I'm the same. Its great to have this new camera choice available...

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I think a lot of people would agree with me that we could use that fixed-lens Scarlet NOW... I just talked to a director who wants a tricked-out Canon 5D for shots that he can grab quickly, oh how I wish I could say "hey, here's a Scarlet we can use instead!"

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks for the posts Steve

Happy to help Mathew...

Every motion media veteran started their learning at some point. You're doing the right thing - asking questions, reading forums, etc. The only "dumb" question is the one which isn't asked! Keep asking questions, milk info from industry veterans, and keep an open mind. The true essence of learning is that the more you learn, the more you should realize you don't know.

After all these years I still approach each day expecting to learn a lot of new things. At the end of the day if I didn't learn some cool new stuff, I'm disappointed and then re-double my efforts the next day.

This is a tech and techniques intensive industry. The learning curve is never-ending for all of us. If you ever think you've "arrived", you've just choked off your learning process. The danger is that your competitors will keep on learning, and you'll be left in their dust.

This is a hard business to get into and stay in. You'll need to be hungry to learn, progress, and succeed. If you can visualize it - you can achieve it.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I hear ya Dave...I think a lot of DSLR rigs will be displaced by Scarlet.

Hopefully we'll see the first Fixed Lens Scarlets shipping by March, or at least by NAB. I have no hard knowledge of shipping dates...just a hunch.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Steve... Thanks for the kind words!

As I said, I often ask people to search though and read your posts. They're much apprechiated.

And let's hope we can run around with our fixed in not too long!

Cheers!

G

 

[Steve Gibby]

That's exactly what I'm going to run with. I'll be adding the Canon mount as I've got a bag full of those lenses already. For bigger and more complex productions there's always the rental house...

Also, I think it's worth saying, the insight from both Steve and David in this thread and across RedUser is invaluable. It's the internet at its best. I'd like to buy you both a beer someday.

I think you're definitely on the right track there

Thank you for the very kind words too. I've just been fortunate to get in on Red very early, so I've always felt along with that a desire to share my impressions and info with everyone here on Red User. Tons of industry veterans have given me their insight throughout my career. To me, its real good "karma" to share knowledge and insight freely with others. In doing so I pay honor to those who've helped me over the years...

I've been to UK several times for work. Hopefully I'll make it over there again sometime soon. When I do it would be great to meet you and compare notes.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Definitely Gunleik...I'm way happy to help

A large part of my ancestry is from Norway. I've been there before and really look forward to visiting again. When I do, it would be great to meet you, Martin, and the other Norweigian Red Users.

Its a big, worldwide Red family now...

 

[Samuel Burton]

Live IMAG for conferences/churches/concerts

Live IMAG for conferences/churches/concerts

For the corporate and product video work you described that you do, IMO the fixed lens Scarlet would be excellent. I'd just use the camera's internal ND filters, the Red Shoulder Mount or ET Mantis, a wide angle converter (Red's when they make it, and until then a Century), a short shotgun, a dual wireless system, a Micro Pro on-camera light, the Red Grip with battery, and shoot to SSD (or CF). If you have long enough turnaround on the production I'd shoot Raw, but if you need a faster turnaround you may think about shooting RGB.


Steve, I'm working in a church environment where we are not able to get very close to the subject so we need good zoom capability. I'm thinking that the fixed lens Scarlet would not be sufficient in this context, but I would also be concerned about the practicality of the interchangeable model for setup as a 'studio' rig. What are your thoughts?

 

[Michael Olsen]

I'm thinking that the fixed lens Scarlet would not be sufficient in this context

What about the zoom on the fixed do you anticipate to be limiting? Focal length, or the actual motion of the zoom?

 

[Steve Gibby]

For the corporate and product video work you described that you do, IMO the fixed lens Scarlet would be excellent. I'd just use the camera's internal ND filters, the Red Shoulder Mount or ET Mantis, a wide angle converter (Red's when they make it, and until then a Century), a short shotgun, a dual wireless system, a Micro Pro on-camera light, the Red Grip with battery, and shoot to SSD (or CF). If you have long enough turnaround on the production I'd shoot Raw, but if you need a faster turnaround you may think about shooting RGB.


Steve, I'm working in a church environment where we are not able to get very close to the subject so we need good zoom capability. I'm thinking that the fixed lens Scarlet would not be sufficient in this context, but I would also be concerned about the practicality of the interchangeable model for setup as a 'studio' rig. What are your thoughts?

I'm thinking that the 8x optical zoom should have plenty of focal range for a church environment, unless its a giant cathedral or meeting hall and you need real tight head shots of audience. The Scarlet 8x zoom is the 35mm equivalent of 28mm to 224mm, which is an excellent wide-to-long zoom. For extra long focal length needs you could easily and quickly attach/detach a 2x extender to the front of the 8x, thus making it a 16x zoom, or a 35mm equivalent of 56mm to 448mm. In using a 2x you'd lose some light to the sensor, so if you went that route you'd need to have the church lights relatively bright.

Initially Red said they'd be making a wide converter and a 2x extender for use with Fixed Lens Scarlet. That's on hold right now, but I believe Red will eventually make them. The advantage of Red making those adaptors would be that they would be engineered and matched really well with the 8x. Having a wide converter and 2x will seriously enhance the capability and utility of the Fixed Lens Scarlet. I think most people who buy the camera will want those converters for that reason. Until Red makes their own converter lenses, Century makes some very good ones which can be adapter for use on Scarlet.

If you went with the Cinema version of Scarlet, you'd need a kit of lenses and also need to change them quickly as you need a longer focal length zoom, mid-length zoom, and a wide zoom. You'd be changing lenses constantly. In a fast moving shooting scenario that's not real practical for the type os shooting you described.

If I was shooting the church productions you mentioned, I'd use the Fixed Lens Scarlet with the setup I described that you quoted above, and add in a wide converter and 2x extender to the kit. It would be a mobile kit with good on-camera shotgun and dual wireless sound, on-camera light, a shoulder rig, a lightweight fluid head tripod, and with the extender and doubler you'd have a huge range of focal lengths and field of view options. If you need to hardline audio into the camera, that can be easily achieved with Scarlet.

Hope this helps...

 

[David Rasberry]

A good B4 ENG lens is a possible option for greater zoom range, but not a cheap one. Based on estimated prices I priced a Scarlet package out with a similar set of features one would find on an entry level 2/3" ENG camera from "Sonasonic", including lens, and it came out to around $19k. Same general price range, but far higher performance potential.