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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet Upgrade...hmmm...not sure.

I agree with you Paul.
At this point, time is on our side and I don't feel like investing almost 10K in a camera now. Too much going on at rapid speed around us and Scarlet still can shine beautifully without Dragon specs for now.
 
Michel Rabe said:
I agree with you Paul.
At this point, time is on our side and I don't feel like investing almost 10K in a camera now. Too much going on at rapid speed around us and Scarlet still can shine beautifully without Dragon specs for now.
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Agreed. We are at that point digitally that a camera is like a film stock. Pick what we know and like and can maximize.... What fits the projects needs. It's at a point now it's about us... The directors ( and dps ) to make imagery and stories worth watching. I truly believe the scarlet max. He'll even the red one can and will be shooting for the next 5+ years
 
Paul Schneider said:
Price aside, I agree on the BM and wouldnt get one. It's heavy and has the ergo of a block of cheese.
Tho RED really needs to be aware of those price points. They are real and becoming more ubiquitous every day. Its a tough market to be in.
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I think Red is doing well where they are. They don't need to compete on rock bottom prices and go after the prosumer/web film guys. They choose not to go the 3k for 3k for a reason. Their priority is on epic, but scarlet benefits tremendously from epic. If you think scarlet is 9000 dollar camera, think again. The BM cam is likely not going to be able to compete against it.

Even if the camera and sensors catch up they still don't have redcode!
 
But approximately 10K for an upgrade that almost surely requires another 7K in accelerator cards and a couple more thousand in larger, proprietary Red mags?
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This just ain't true. Supposedly the new chip will reduce data rates. Unless you know some sort of insider information, just doesn't make sense.
 
Hey Paul. All valid points. Great topic.

I also wondered if the $9,500 upgrade path to Epic-X might be the right upgrade path for me, or is this whole upgrade path even worth it?

I don't think I would be upgrading to Scarlet-D; I'm sure it will be a great camera, but if I'm upgrading I'd rather get a brand spanking new Epic-X with a 1-year warranty, enjoy shooting everything around me at 4K 150fps until I'm blue in the face, and then maybe when the time comes shell out another $9,500 for Dragon. By the way, I wouldn't do the Dragon for the 6K (I haven't delivered a 4K final to any client yet!) but definitely would love the cleaner sensor at higher ISOs. Even if the Epic-X were to lose some value, I'm sure I could get the 9.5k back, I mean, the Epic-X is still a beast of a camera, even compared to Epic-D's specs.

The question remains, though: should I upgrade and get more in bed with RED or should I sell my Scarlet-X and just rent for projects exclusively? Again, all valid points.

My main thought- IF I decide to shell out all this money and eventually land on Epic-D, I would expect and demand for that camera to at least have the option to be able to do everything. That means STILLS (remember that red switch in the DSMC's side handle?) so I no longer carry my DSLR around (Dragon's 19 MP will do just fine), that means professional TIMELAPSES (no 1 sec limit!), that means being able to delete unwanted takes to preserve memory on the expensive proprietary SSDs, everything means everything.

This summer will be very interesting.


Paul Schneider said:
Absolutely.Fair enough.

I guess my point was, more or less, do I need to upgrade a camera that requires a card that costs half as much as the camera in order to truly maximize its potential. For 5K I could probably build a pretty nice computer that would accelerate all my stuff, not just r3ds. Feasibly, I could also get a BMC 4K camera as well...if I was so inclined...which I certainly am not. Just worth mentioning.

I totally get the media data rate argument. Very possible and good to know. Red Mags are pricey...really pricey...and I don't think its wrong wishing that they weren't so much.
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Personally Scarlet-Dragon would have to do 6k/25fps for me to consider it at that cost (or be $5k) and I'm not going to "upgrade" to the same sensor just because it does 5k/96fps.

Ironically, when speaking professionally, I think you'll have an easier time selling clients on Epic-X than you will Scarlet-D (because of frame rates). The client doesn't know or care about more DR and low-light, so it's irrelevant as a selling feature. Basically, I don't think anyone will get an additional $9.5k over what they would have earned with MX during the same time period (life of the camera). That means you'll essentially be pissing away $9.5k without having any noticeable return...

I'd be interested to see the rental/camera earning numbers from RED Ms for a year/18mths after the MX upgrade became available. ...Although, to be fair, those numbers wouldn't be accurate because a.) RED was the only 4k/RAW camera at the time (whereas now the floodgates are open, so they'll be new 4k+/RAW cams every 4months), b.) the MX upgrade was only ~$5k and c.) the RED1 was in the professional/high-end space (like Epic is now) whereas Scarlet is quickly racing to the bottom (despite what RED does to try to prevent that from happening).
 
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Now that the hype is down, reality just set in. The epic actually seems like a proper upgrade path since you are essentially paying for a new camera and not a portion of one. The dragon sensor is tempting as hell, drool worthy even. But at a $9500 price tag, i feel they can release a new scarlet-d brain/ssd/mount for that price. I dont recall a ferrari engine costing more than the car itself, but its the price you pay to stay ahead. Oh well, better than no upgrade I guess.
 
You can't buy a Scarlet Dragon (yet). It's a tough decision though, as pricing suggests an Epic X brain will cost as much as a Scarlet Dragon brain.

Sacrificing frame rates for a lower noise floor and more dynamic range. Some people will have more use for high speed, and others more use for low light shooting.

Scarlet Dragon over-cranks enough for my taste even though nothing is really confirmed until the camera is released. I doubt they would go lower than the already stated frame rates, but you never know until you know.
 
Jett He said:
Now that the hype is down, reality just set in. The epic actually seems like a proper upgrade path since you are essentially paying for a new camera and not a portion of one. The dragon sensor is tempting as hell, drool worthy even. But at a $9500 price tag, i feel they can release a new scarlet-d brain/ssd/mount for that price. I dont recall a ferrari engine costing more than the car itself, but its the price you pay to stay ahead. Oh well, better than no upgrade I guess.
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Yes, everything aside. Any upgrade path is better than no upgrade path.
 
Slowly but surely I have reached the conclusion to withdraw from the Dragon path and go to the end of the line for the Epic upgrade, based on my local market needs. It doesn't thrill me as much as it would, to have the benefits of Dragon though.
 
Paramon Ivanovich said:
Yes, let's discuss, this!i want to send my EX1 back to Sony, maybe pay couple more grand, and get FS 700, do you think i should use FedEx, or UPS?

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Irrelevant.

This is about the upgrade path of the Scarlet alone and where it stands in the market.

No one questions the fact that supplying an upgrade path for its users isn't generous...its downright awesome. My point is simply that $9500 upgrade + a RocketX, the possibility of additional media and the time cost of working RAW may be more than can be recouped (for me) in the Scarlet category. Its up to everyone to decide this on their own. Frankly, they've got a bit of time to do so too. I believe the an actual, physical Dragon upgrade on the Scarlet may be something thats more than several months away.
 
Paul Schneider said:
My point is simply that $9500 upgrade + a RocketX, the possibility of additional media and the time cost of working RAW may be more than can be recouped (for me).
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Then this is even shorter discussion than i thought, only you can tell what makes financial sense to you, wait until dragon footage is released, get it into your existing workflow, do your estimates and get it over with;
but even in your position, where you don't have to convince anyone which camera to use, i'd still choose Epic X, it is more camera than Scarlet and you still have an option to upgrade it in a few months to an Epic d.
And as a "move on" option, which way you're going to move, BMPC 4K ? (no sarcasm)
 
Paramon Ivanovich said:
Then this is even shorter discussion than i thought, only you can tell what makes financial sense to you, wait until dragon footage is released, get it into your existing workflow, do your estimates and get it over with;
but even in your position, where you don't have to convince anyone which camera to use, i'd still choose Epic X, it is more camera than Scarlet and you still have an option to upgrade it in a few months to an Epic d.
And as a "move on" option, which way you're going to move, BMPC 4K ? (no sarcasm)
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No. Not the BMCC. Anything I would move on to would be more something easy for personal use. Maybe a new DSLR, more likely something a with a more robust image and an easy workflow...perhaps the fs700, tho I do like the weight and form factor of the c100/300. Certainly not a raw camera. Raw isn't everything and I've proven that in my personal work many other factors trump a (technically) flawless image. In fact, the three most popular things on my reel, the things that bring me work every single month were shot on DSLR or 16mm Film. Are they the best image? Nope. They do reasonate with folks however, and thats what I want.

As for the upgrade. I probably don't need to see Dragon to know I probably won't need it for the Scarlet. It just doesn't make economic sense for me and I don't know many Scarlet owners who can honestly claim differently, although I'm sure they exist. I said the upgrade was a nice option and I mean it. It will have a great image and hopefully will have a much higher ISO. Of course this is entirely speculation as neither of us has seen a single frame of it, but RED is smart and I'll give'em the benefit of the doubt. What I know it will definitely include is an image that more or less needs and expensive card and expensive media in order to deliver in any way close to "efficient". These extras are not as prevalent elsewhere and are quickly becoming unacceptable to me.

I'm not sure why I would spend thousands upgrading to an EPIC when I can rent one for a song in LA? People literally throw in second camera bodies when we rent from them. Its a great camera no doubt, but I'm not a rental house and I might never pay it back. It would be foolish (again for me). I could get a brand new second camera for that much...or even two BMC's if I was so inclined, which I am not.
 
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The way it was back when I first put money down on a Scarlet - not long after they became available - the Epic (if I remember correctly) was $28K for a brain plus media plus canon mount, about $16,000 more than a Scarlet brain with the same. So it's a good deal to spend $9500 to get what I really wanted in the first place. Please correct me if my math is wrong.

HOWEVER, if it's going to take as long to get this EPIC X upgrade as it is for the rest of those waiting for the Scarlet D then it's not worth it. If they are to be made available at the same time I would definitely have gone for the Scarlet D. I thought since Epics were available - I would get mine faster. But no clue from RED as to when either program is starting.
 
Jason Rudd said:
The way it was back when I first put money down on a Scarlet - not long after they became available - the Epic (if I remember correctly) was $28K for a brain plus media plus canon mount, about $16,000 more than a Scarlet brain with the same. So it's a good deal to spend $9500 to get what I really wanted in the first place. Please correct me if my math is wrong.

HOWEVER, if it's going to take as long to get this EPIC X upgrade as it is for the rest of those waiting for the Scarlet D then it's not worth it. If they are to be made available at the same time I would definitely have gone for the Scarlet D. I thought since Epics were available - I would get mine faster. But no clue from RED as to when either program is starting.
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If you have the work to pay for the Epic upgrade its certainly a good deal.
I guess the root of my curiosity or concern centers around Scarlet not Epic. With so many Epics out there for rent the price to get one for a day is very, very low. I can easily get one for $500, or even less, per day in LA. So that SEEMS to make the general rental market for Scarlet nearly non-existant unless some special circumstances exist, which they may for some.

This makes the Scarlet more of a personal camera to me, which can also be fine for some, but 25ish-K is A LOT of money for anyone to spend on a personal camera...regardless of the capabilities.
 
Paul Schneider said:
Right. I agree an Epic upgrade may yield more in the long run...thats why I feel a more modest Scarlet upgrade might be a sensible option for RED given the current camera client being offered up by Sony, BMC etc.

As for the R3d's. Yes, it is possible to cut in Premiere at 1/4 res, but there is huge room for improvement. A decent system should be able to offer real time performance at full res when editing, and that performance should carry over equally into Color Grading, Compositing, etc. I've done all kinds of informal apple to apple tests between r3d, sony raw, and BM and things really do slow down with the r3d...especially when taken out of the edit bay.

Recently I cut two different projects for HBO in r3d on Premiere only to find my local colorist really couldn't work on the 4K files in real time. I honestly don't know where the bottlenecks are, and really don't care, but buying a camera that requires a card that costs half as much as the camera to work on the files is probably not a sustainable solution given the marketplace.

All this said, I do comment RED opening some of their effect tasks up to the GPU in the latest versions of RCX. I'm just being overly realist for the sake of debate at the moment. ;)
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Why would you need full res when editing? Do you have a 4K display? It's kinda useless, really, and a good system, like a 12 core Mac, can edit in Premiere at 1/2 res.

Davinci plays Red 4K in real time no problem off any decent hard drive and decent NVidia card, at 1/2 res good no rocket Davinci 10 will pause at full res (like Premiere does now) You local colorist sounds like he lacks basic knowledge of his craft.
 
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