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Scarlet undercut by an Epic EPIC Lowballer

Brad Webb

Brad Webb

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I suppose it was only a matter of time, but today our Scarlet rate was undercut by someone with an EPIC. Here's an excerpt from the email from the line producer:

We recently came across someone who must be literally insane, because he can provide us the RED-Epic, DIT and operator for a ridiculously, unbelievable rate. I suppose anything is possible here in Los Angeles.


Obviously I don't begrudge the producer for taking the deal. Good for them for getting an EPIC for less than a competitively priced Scarlet package. But wow dude. How hard up are you for work?

I'm not mad tho. I'll probably be buying this dude's used Epic in a year for cheap when he can't afford the loan payments anymore.
 
What was this super low rate?
 
Brad Webb said:
That's what I'm betting. The producer will be getting a follow up email from us on Monday asking how the shoot went.
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There is a good chance that everything was fine, even if it was a disaster the producer won't tell you, so I would leave it a few weeks & ask to see the finished result.
 
Maybe just a slow week for them and they would rather be working? So this community only supports EPIC owners who charge a certain daily rate?
 
If I could keep an Epic busy every day of the year at a super low rate I would make 10x as much as many epic owners.

$600 * 3 * 52 = $93k a year. That's a nice little profit on top of maybe a $70k investment. Buy two Epic packages and keep them both busy that regularly and after the first year you're making serious cash.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
If I could keep an Epic busy every day of the year at a super low rate I would make 10x as much as many epic owners.

$600 * 3 * 52 = $93k a year. That's a nice little profit on top of maybe a $70k investment. Buy two Epic packages and keep them both busy that regularly and after the first year you're making serious cash.
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That's assuming nothing breaks or gets lost, and with that much use, stuff is going to break and get lost. Especially cables. It's also nearly impossible to rent your camera everyday for a year. Logistics make it impossible. Shoots run long, get cancelled, pushed back, not everything gets returned at the same time, you need to check your gear between rental, etc. If you're really lucky you can get 45 weeks a year. Realistically if you're hustling you're renting it for 30 weeks a years.

Oh, and FYI... this guy would have beat your $600/day price.
 
If shit gets lost or broken... you charge them for it. Even then if once every 5 weeks someone breaks something that's only $2,500 in cables.

You also assume that it's not getting use outside of rentals. My Scarlet rentals have paid for all of my accessories. Ultimately my Scarlet is for my use not as a profit center--so I actually tend to put back all of my rental income into more equipment.

I could very easily see a situation where someone would need to rent an Epic 6 weeks a year. @ $1k a day rental that would work out $18k. Over 2 years that's $36k. If they purchased and then rented it out for even $333 a day for 20 weeks that would mean they would also make $40k over 2 years in rental revenue. For $76k you could put together a really nice package and have access to a camera 30 weeks a year instead of 6 weeks a year--which opens up more opportunities.

The reason we can have such low ballers (such as myself) is because not everyone needs to live off of their rental revenues like a rental house. Sure if you need to pay your bills from renting out your gear it's unattainable to rent out at ridiculously low rates. But if every $ coming in is seen as profit (after paying for wear and tear) it's quite a nice little chunk of beer money.
 
Like it or not, it's called capitalism. If the low rate is unsustainable, the "perpetrator" will go out of business. Until then, you have to cope with it. Then, of course, the next "low-baller" comes along... (sigh) It's a crowded market with a lot of unsophisticated buyers. Who said this was going to be easy? And price fixing isn't exactly the answer. :huh:
 
I mean, if I were renting gear I'd go with the lowest price I could find knowing that if shit hit the fan I could tell the camera owner-operator/"cinematographer" to take a break, and then use his gear as I see fit. Honestly, shooting RED isn't rocket science; with decent lenses it's almost difficult to make it look bad. So I'm not sure how getting a cheap rental can make the production suffer all that much.

Who knows, it could have been a friend of someone involved in the production who was matching/beating the next best rate solely to help out his buddy...
 
If it were a friend of the production, why was the line producer shopping for quotes?

An Epic package with a DIT and an operator for less than $600 a day is madness. They are basically either saying that their time is worthless or their gear is free. Either way, that's not a good thing. Well, unless you are a producer- then it's the best thing.
 
I have no desire to defend, or defile, any particular pricing approach, but the "madness" argument or "their undervaluing their time/equipment" arguments are made constantly (and fruitlessly) and have no bearing on market economics. What people might be saying is that their time and equipment are worth something when they are working and nothing when they are not. Everyone makes decsions like thsi, in context, every day. Just like someone living in a small apartment in Bakersfield has different economic needs than someone supporting a family in a 4 bedroom house in LA, everyone comes at it from a different perspective and circumstance. Sad, perhaps, but it's the way it works. :-(

I think, in the end, it's all about strong relationships, trust, and providing a valuable service.
 
Why do people on this forum get so riled up when someone else rents out THEIR gear for cheap? It's a free market, they can do whatever they want. I understand you invested a lot of money and had hopes for substantial rental income - but no one guaranteed that to you. So why get upset at the other guy who rents his stuff out for cheaper?

And why is it always justified that "cheaper" is a worse job? I understand that makes you feel better, but there is a possibility his service could be better than yours too, at a cheaper price.

That's like saying since RED costs 10 times cheaper than ARRI ALEXA, it must be 10 times as crappy. Is that true? Clearly not.

This is the law of the markets, business practices evolve and prices are unpredictable. Like Terry said, WELCOME TO CAPITALISM.
 
Yousuf Abbasi said:
Why do people on this forum get so riled up when someone else rents out THEIR gear for cheap? It's a free market, they can do whatever they want. I understand you invested a lot of money and had hopes for substantial rental income - but no one guaranteed that to you. So why get upset at the other guy who rents his stuff out for cheaper?

And why is it always justified that "cheaper" is a worse job? I understand that makes you feel better, but there is a possibility his service could be better than yours too, at a cheaper price.

That's like saying since RED costs 10 times cheaper than ARRI ALEXA, it must be 10 times as crappy. Is that true? Clearly not.

This is the law of the markets, business practices evolve and prices are unpredictable. Like Terry said, WELCOME TO CAPITALISM.
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I have even worked for free & provided an Epic + Lenses, it's a personal choice.

My normal rate is without any equipment, kit is always a seperate negociation.
 
Ash Worth said:
Maybe just a slow week for them and they would rather be working? So this community only supports EPIC owners who charge a certain daily rate?
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No community supports gross undercuters and bottom feeders who destroy the market. Free work should be for real charities, and real friends. Capitalism works best with rules and some guidelines. History and a quick glance at the world proves me right.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
No community supports gross undercuters and bottom feeders who destroy the market. Free work should be for real charities, and real friends. Capitalism works best with rules and some guidelines. History and a quick glance at the world proves me right.
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"Capitalism works best with rules and some guidelines. "

HAHA. That sounds like something a socialist would say about capitalism.

And no, free work can be for whatever purpose the person or entity desires. Be it, build clientele, get experience, or just try to dissolve competitors (like you). The market is not always going to be your friend.
 
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