Scarlet undercut by an Epic EPIC Lowballer

[Zac C]

I know how you feel Brad, I just got undercut on a tv pilot in LA. It was for a friend, so I went wicked low on a $600/day for 13 days, but that's each day, not a 4 day week, so I was making my normal amount for a Scarlet+OP kit.

Some guy undercut me offering Huge Scarlet kit and a OP/DIT for $400/day 4 day week.


Can't believe they can operate when I have to dump low on my offers to get work.

 

[Jon Jones]

It happens man, This is a free country. I'm not saying I like it. Take a guy who makes 12 bucks an hour, 96 bucks a day, before taxes in the manufacturing industry, and put a scarlet package in his hand. Now he's making $500 a day, and he can afford to cut it to less than 200 if he has to, and still make twice what he is making on the manufacturing floor. It's not rocket science, these cameras are cheap enough now that buying a full out camera rig is like buying a new Chevy truck. Granted in won't get ya to work but it will pay for your gas on your way to work. Plain and simple, people are looking for a way to maximize their investments, and camera rental is fastly becoming that way for many, many people. Not all people have to get a loan to buy their cameras either, people are dumping their 401k's just to have a shot at 4k, others are just shuffling their investment over into the movie industry. It's the same with Directors and Ad agencies, they are trying to get some profit out of their shrinking budgets, and they will almost always go with the cheapest guy. It's not their fault, now-a-days the clients budget is smaller than ever and they realize if it doesn't fit your budget than they can just find someone that the budget will fit, and then deal with the outcome, or hire a quasi prosumer video editor and do it in house.

It's not a brain buster to see where this industry is going. This isn't rocket science where NASA holds all the patents, and no one else is allowed to operate in the airspace by punishment of the armed forces. No this is an all out free for all, and the winner is the one that can balance budget with performance the best. The winner is the one that doesn't have to make a loan payment, the winners are the ones that can provide everything under one roof for one low price. Have you ever heard the phrase "If it's not at Wal-Mart, I don't need it", it's that kind of thinking that the general public has in mind. If the prices aren't falling then they don't want any of what your selling.

 

[Matt Ryan]

"Capitalism works best with rules and some guidelines. "

HAHA. That sounds like something a socialist would say about capitalism.

And no, free work can be for whatever purpose the person or entity desires. Be it, build clientele, get experience, or just try to dissolve competitors (like you). The market is not always going to be your friend.

hahaha +1, so true.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I still believe you get what you pay for. Some inexperienced "DP" that owns a Scarlet may think he's giving you a "deal". But I'd rather pay more for a pro...and in return have a movie or a short that looks AMAZING.

I believe in talent, not in products.

(That said, I still want everything shot in RED :laugh

 

[Steve Sherrick]

The real answer to all this is in fact relationships. When a producer sets out to hire crew, rent gear, etc. they will often rely on past experience. Who do they like working with, are they available, and do they fit the budget. When they have to go outside that comfort zone because of budget, scheduling conflicts, shooting in remote places, etc. they have to "shop" around. See who else is available, maybe based on recommendations or through booking agencies. Same with gear rentals. Producers often have rental companies they deal with on a regular basis and in some cases are able to acquire substantial discounts with due to volume of rentals and an ongoing relationship with the rental house. Sometimes camera rentals may appear very cheap but in fact it's bundled with all kinds of other gear and it's the volume of gear that affects the rental companies bottom line.

Now, when it comes to certain productions and new, inexperienced producers or even experienced ones who for one reason or another are forced to search for the cheapest deals in town, then yes you will see them go for the independents who are willing to rent to them at rock bottom rates. They may or may not know the risks involved. Some owners have backup gear and offer terrific support. Others are crossing their fingers hoping nothing goes wrong. If it does go wrong, the producers either learn a valuable lesson or they don't and they keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

I think it's difficult to make general assumptions on any deals being made without knowing all of the facts, and without first hand knowledge of the circumstances. Sure, there are some ridiculous deals made. But all that matters is that we're getting rates that make sense for our own needs. Again, this comes down to relationships and working with clients who trust you, value you, and are not always seeking the cheapest deal no matter what. If I'm a producer and I have the choice of working with someone I know and trust who costs a little more than someone I've never worked with, as long as the budget allows for it I'm always going to go with the person or company I know and trust.

 

[Matt Ryan]

I still believe you get what you pay for. Some inexperienced "DP" that owns a Scarlet may think he's giving you a "deal". But I'd rather pay more for a pro...and in return have a movie or a short that looks AMAZING.

I believe in talent, not in products.

(That said, I still want everything shot in RED :laugh

Very true, but they are renting a camera package, not a DP or cam op. So if you can get a deal go for it. Never cheap out on a DP or cam op, thats asking for trouble. Doesn't matter what camera you shoot on if the DP can't light and expose.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

The real answer to all this is in fact relationships. When a producer sets out to hire crew, rent gear, etc. they will often rely on past experience. Who do they like working with, are they available, and do they fit the budget. When they have to go outside that comfort zone because of budget, scheduling conflicts, shooting in remote places, etc. they have to "shop" around. See who else is available, maybe based on recommendations or through booking agencies. Same with gear rentals. Producers often have rental companies they deal with on a regular basis and in some cases are able to acquire substantial discounts with due to volume of rentals and an ongoing relationship with the rental house. Sometimes camera rentals may appear very cheap but in fact it's bundled with all kinds of other gear and it's the volume of gear that affects the rental companies bottom line.

Now, when it comes to certain productions and new, inexperienced producers or even experienced ones who for one reason or another are forced to search for the cheapest deals in town, then yes you will see them go for the independents who are willing to rent to them at rock bottom rates. They may or may not know the risks involved. Some owners have backup gear and offer terrific support. Others are crossing their fingers hoping nothing goes wrong. If it does go wrong, the producers either learn a valuable lesson or they don't and they keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

I think it's difficult to make general assumptions on any deals being made without knowing all of the facts, and without first hand knowledge of the circumstances. Sure, there are some ridiculous deals made. But all that matters is that we're getting rates that make sense for our own needs. Again, this comes down to relationships and working with clients who trust you, value you, and are not always seeking the cheapest deal no matter what. If I'm a producer and I have the choice of working with someone I know and trust who costs a little more than someone I've never worked with, as long as the budget allows for it I'm always going to go with the person or company I know and trust.

Exactly, Steve. To quote myself from post #16 in this thread...

"I think, in the end, it's all about strong relationships, trust, and providing a valuable service."

 

[drew sandoval]

My little addition to this interesting thread...

I was making a music video with a treatment i was really excited about but only had like $300 for camera owner/op. I searched around, the best camera system i could get for was obviously a 5d2. Great, might not be cinema quality, but i was still excited. By chance i happened to have a convo with a RedEpic owner op, he happened to love the idea, and said he would bring on his gear and experience for the $300 rate. I am sure that is horrible for the 5d2 guy, but honestly the DP ended up with was way more excited about the project than my original choice.

There are two ways of looking at that story, a near crime for the dude who got undercut, or awesome for two guys who are really excited about the project they made. Your choice.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Exactly, Steve. To quote myself from post #16 in this thread...

"I think, in the end, it's all about strong relationships, trust, and providing a valuable service."

That's how I've built my career. Without decent people skills I'd probably be doing something else for a career right now.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

My little addition to this interesting thread...

I was making a music video with a treatment i was really excited about but only had like $300 for camera owner/op. I searched around, the best camera system i could get for was obviously a 5d2. Great, might not be cinema quality, but i was still excited. By chance i happened to have a convo with a RedEpic owner op, he happened to love the idea, and said he would bring on his gear and experience for the $300 rate. I am sure that is horrible for the 5d2 guy, but honestly the DP ended up with was way more excited about the project than my original choice.

There are two ways of looking at that story, a near crime for the dude who got undercut, or awesome for two guys who are really excited about the project they made. Your choice.

I think your point is an excellent one - it isn't just about the money. :thumbsup:

 

[Nick Morrison]

Exactly, Steve. To quote myself from post #16 in this thread...

"I think, in the end, it's all about strong relationships, trust, and providing a valuable service."

I have to say, I agree with this 2000%. All of my favorite personal projects have been built through relationships - with fantastic DPs, editors, crew, etc. We all get excited about a project, as a team, and work on them collectively. It's the best way to work. Ideally EVERYONE wins if the projects comes out great.

 

[Jon Jones]

Steve, you said it way better than I, and I agree 100%! It's almost always about who you know and who knows you.

The real answer to all this is in fact relationships. When a producer sets out to hire crew, rent gear, etc. they will often rely on past experience. Who do they like working with, are they available, and do they fit the budget. When they have to go outside that comfort zone because of budget, scheduling conflicts, shooting in remote places, etc. they have to "shop" around. See who else is available, maybe based on recommendations or through booking agencies. Same with gear rentals. Producers often have rental companies they deal with on a regular basis and in some cases are able to acquire substantial discounts with due to volume of rentals and an ongoing relationship with the rental house. Sometimes camera rentals may appear very cheap but in fact it's bundled with all kinds of other gear and it's the volume of gear that affects the rental companies bottom line.

Now, when it comes to certain productions and new, inexperienced producers or even experienced ones who for one reason or another are forced to search for the cheapest deals in town, then yes you will see them go for the independents who are willing to rent to them at rock bottom rates. They may or may not know the risks involved. Some owners have backup gear and offer terrific support. Others are crossing their fingers hoping nothing goes wrong. If it does go wrong, the producers either learn a valuable lesson or they don't and they keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

I think it's difficult to make general assumptions on any deals being made without knowing all of the facts, and without first hand knowledge of the circumstances. Sure, there are some ridiculous deals made. But all that matters is that we're getting rates that make sense for our own needs. Again, this comes down to relationships and working with clients who trust you, value you, and are not always seeking the cheapest deal no matter what. If I'm a producer and I have the choice of working with someone I know and trust who costs a little more than someone I've never worked with, as long as the budget allows for it I'm always going to go with the person or company I know and trust.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

My EPIC-X is ready to start in the "mailroom" and work its way up the ladder. What it doesn't earn in dollars, hopefully it makes up for in education, relationships and a network (of like-minded peers).

 

[Ash Worth]

No community supports gross undercuters and bottom feeders who destroy the market. Free work should be for real charities, and real friends. Capitalism works best with rules and some guidelines. History and a quick glance at the world proves me right.

But a quick glance at the forum and you would be proved wrong. Nice assumption that this person was a bottom feeder. Shame you feel so insecure that you think your market will be destroyed.

 

[Jon Jones]

People who rent their camera's out for cheap are only bottom feeders in the eyes of those that see them that way. Like Steve said, you can't just look at the rate and throw judgements out there just because of that. I don't rent my camera's out for cheap, but I would if there were a hundred epic owners around here, like there are in LA and New York and so on.