Scarlet to Dragon upgrade to 19,000 and the state of the Scarlet 'brand'

[Ben Scott]

I have two Scarlets- they've never rented except for parts (media etc) backup body or freebies. It always goes to an Epic instead.

I've made more on the SSDs in the kits than renting the cameras.

It's not a rental camera it's an owner camera. For low budgets why Rent a raw camera when you can rent a C300 or an F5 and have a cheap workflow.

Fortunately I'll be bumping them to MX Epics to fill a hole while my epic bodies are away for Dragon and eventually get them to Dragon Epic too.

Nothing against Scarlets- they are great value but in my market they don't work (for the same reason I passed on Blackmagic cameras etc).

Agree completely. We're probably in the same market

 

[Brian Merlen]

9500 every year or 2? didn't Scarlet ship to people in 2011 lol? and now its mid 2014... i agree getting a new dragon/scarlet dragon might be the way to go for some vs upgrading scarlets...but it really comes down to how fast you can work it for your ROI

Well, I struggle to understand your struggle to understand. To each his own. I mean, it all depends on your business/creative/artistic needs. I admit having struggled with the decision, but for my line of work (I don't rent the camera), I hardly need higher frame rates. As a matter of fact (don't jump on me for saying this), I think people overuse slowmotion. It has become so readily available I guess that I hardly ever see slow motion used properly. It has become a cheap trendy artifact in most cases to hide weak storytelling IMMO.

"But it only shoots 5K...". Well, 6K is great, but you make it sound as if 5k was shit.

I love what RED has done for the industry and for me personally... and couldn't be happier with my Scarlet, but somehow RED's "obsolence obsolete" mantra is something I have become skeptical about. Spending 9500 - more than the actual cost of the Scarlet X brain- every year or two is not my idea of "obsolence obsolete". So the real question in my case is: Having only 9500 to spend, what is a better camera for me? Scarlet Dragon or EPIC MX (both 5K, except Scarlet D records 6K at 12fps)? No doubt, Scarlet Dragon.

Conclusion: it is a hard choice but it all depends on what your real needs are.

 

[Eric Santiago]

Some of it comes down to good communication with your client (I deal with this all the time with my Scarlet), but for first time clients who haven't worked with you before, or haven't really investigated your quality of work...

I had to do a test shoot with a local DP to convince him that my Scarlet can handle low-light with the right amount of lights (budget permitting).

Days after the shoot, we sat down in front of RCX and he was impressed by the look (considering we tested outdoor at night using two Ring lights and one LED 1x1) it produced out of the camera.

Sure I would love to upgrade to an EPIC or better yet DRAGON, but I love my Scarlet and I will hang on to her for awhile

 

[TD Wood]

9500 every year or 2? didn't Scarlet ship to people in 2011 lol? and now its mid 2014... i agree getting a new dragon/scarlet dragon might be the way to go for some vs upgrading scarlets...but it really comes down to how fast you can work it for your ROI

Not really. Scarlets ordered on Nov 2011 did not really began shipping until Feb-March 2012. Upgrades for Scarlet Dragon began on April 2013 and we were told that Scarlet D's would begin shipping on Sept 2013. I would say that roughly makes it 1-2 years. Of course, we are in mid 2014 and no news about Scarlet D. But, hey, don't blame me.

 

[Robert Andriessen]

Another thing I would consider is the field of view and how much Epic is using of the sensor instead of Scarlet D. Does it produce a better image when you take the FF from the sensor as apposed to cropping slightly? I'm leaning towards Scarlet- D personally because of image quality, high frame rates I don't need so often.

 

[Domenic Barbero]

i just sent in my epic for dragon, and am trying to get my scarlet to scarlet dragon. I really loved having a scarlet. It rented well, and always looked great. Personally if I had to choose between scarlet dragon and epic mx, i would take the scarlet dragon easy. 5k up to 60fps. Thats pretty bad ass. better latitude, better iso range, new color science and at 5k you wont run into any lens issues. Its awesome. I cant wait to get my SD as a b cam to my ED. but both will rent out equally well.

 

[Michael Dalton]

Well, I struggle to understand your struggle to understand. To each his own. I mean, it all depends on your business/creative/artistic needs. I admit having struggled with the decision, but for my line of work (I don't rent the camera), I hardly need higher frame rates. As a matter of fact (don't jump on me for saying this), I think people overuse slowmotion. It has become so readily available I guess that I hardly ever see slow motion used properly. It has become a cheap trendy artifact in most cases to hide weak storytelling IMMO.

"But it only shoots 5K...". Well, 6K is great, but you make it sound as if 5k was shit.

I love what RED has done for the industry and for me personally... and couldn't be happier with my Scarlet, but somehow RED's "obsolence obsolete" mantra is something I have become skeptical about. Spending 9500 - more than the actual cost of the Scarlet X brain- every year or two is not my idea of "obsolence obsolete". So the real question in my case is: Having only 9500 to spend, what is a better camera for me? Scarlet Dragon or EPIC MX (both 5K, except Scarlet D records 6K at 12fps)? No doubt, Scarlet Dragon.

Conclusion: it is a hard choice but it all depends on what your real needs are.

Maybe it's because doing what I do, I really use the high frame rates, and the full sensor with wide angles. I've owned two scarlets and could not get into it because of the crop sensor. I had a scarlet for 1.5 years, and racked up maybe 5 hours runtime on it. I do agree that not everyone needs high frame rates, and when I did use the scarlet, it was for time-lapse at 5k.

 

[Doug Beatty]

i just sent in my epic for dragon, and am trying to get my scarlet to scarlet dragon. I really loved having a scarlet. It rented well, and always looked great. Personally if I had to choose between scarlet dragon and epic mx, i would take the scarlet dragon easy. 5k up to 60fps. Thats pretty bad ass. better latitude, better iso range, new color science and at 5k you wont run into any lens issues. Its awesome. I cant wait to get my SD as a b cam to my ED. but both will rent out equally well.

Are you planning on selling your Scarlet MX and buying a new Scarlet Dragon? I agree 100% on a personal level that Scarlet Dragon is the more desirable camera compared to Epic MX, but I'm not so sure where I am that Scarlet Dragon is going to rent at all.

I see quite a few Epic Dragons out here, and those folks are the same people that matched/underbid us when it was Epic MX vs. Scarlet MX. Now that they are on Dragon, I see no reason that they won't still underbid a Scarlet Dragon package once they have recouped their initial investment, which will happen much sooner since they only have to pocket $9.5K instead of $34K.

Add that to the fact that people who have been waiting over a year to upgrade won't even have the camera in their hands until everybody has new Epic Dragons or before new people into the Red ecosystem who reserved SDs new at NAB 2014...I'll just say it's a steep hill to climb for the little mom and pops at the bottom of the RED totem pole in Los Angeles if you are thinking of trying to make your money back.

I love shooting on RED but all signs point to either selling Scarlet MX or going for Epic MX to max out on camera equity and rentability because an Epic is still an Epic.

 

[Domenic Barbero]

Are you planning on selling your Scarlet MX and buying a new Scarlet Dragon? I agree 100% on a personal level that Scarlet Dragon is the more desirable camera compared to Epic MX, but I'm not so sure where I am that Scarlet Dragon is going to rent at all.

I see quite a few Epic Dragons out here, and those folks are the same people that matched/underbid us when it was Epic MX vs. Scarlet MX. Now that they are on Dragon, I see no reason that they won't still underbid a Scarlet Dragon package once they have recouped their initial investment, which will happen much sooner since they only have to pocket $9.5K instead of $34K.

Add that to the fact that people who have been waiting over a year to upgrade won't even have the camera in their hands until everybody has new Epic Dragons or before new people into the Red ecosystem who reserved SDs new at NAB 2014...I'll just say it's a steep hill to climb for the little mom and pops at the bottom of the RED totem pole in Los Angeles if you are thinking of trying to make your money back.

I love shooting on RED but all signs point to either selling Scarlet MX or going for Epic MX to max out on camera equity and rentability because an Epic is still an Epic.

Ill just be upgrading my scarlet or buying new, whichever is faster. What I offer up here in seattle is multiple packages and cams for different project levels. Lots of indie productions rent the scarlet from me. Its actually pretty nice. So to have both options will be great. Then I may just get a second scarlet mx and just use that to rent agains all the other crappy 4k cams that are coming out like BM and others. Im really stoked for Scarlet Dragon. With the specs it could def become an A cam on lots of projects.

 

[Robert Andriessen]

Does every owner here rent their camera's out? It seems like a completely different business to do, being a shooter.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Not really. Scarlets ordered on Nov 2011 did not really began shipping until Feb-March 2012. Upgrades for Scarlet Dragon began on April 2013 and we were told that Scarlet D's would begin shipping on Sept 2013. I would say that roughly makes it 1-2 years. Of course, we are in mid 2014 and no news about Scarlet D. But, hey, don't blame me.

LMFAO! i laughed so hard my friend looked over!


i dont think reds gonna be dropping another sensor for at least a few years...


robert some people only do rentals. some people do rentals + shoot when they get the kit rentals. it all comes down to what your into... my MX is renting quite a lot still so theres nothing wrong with it but being that its primarily a rental camera i opted to go for the next generation. i know it will continue to rent now and for years to come, just like MX did. for me i view it as a long term game not a who has the first dragon in your town game...besides all those dudes had to work the bugs out and OLPF for us...im happy getting a dragon this coming week and i think now is the perfect time for me, its been debugged by lots of other folks!

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Here's a thing.

Since getting Epic, I no longer think of Scarlet as a 4/5K camera at all.

If you can't overcrank significantly, or at all, at 4/5K, it isn't a 4/5K camera - IMHO, for my money, for my work.

Remember back in the original Scarlet program, when it was a 3K camera? Scarlet Cine? That's what it turns out I actually have. It can shoot at 3K for an HD finish on most S16 glass, and overcrank enough at that resolution. I've basically thrown away the 4/5K capabilities of Scarlet, and use it almost exclusively windowed.

That's how I see and use Scarlet these days. If I want to shoot S35 or larger, I reach for Epic. Or Dragon in a week or two, when my upgrade is finished

I'd STILL like Red to make a pukka S16 camera, in a new small/light brain design, with a S16-size Dragon sensor, with chip and processing optimized for that resolution. Sensor chip yields at that size should be high, and the camera could potentially be pretty cheap.

Mike

 

[Doug Beatty]

Here's a thing.

Since getting Epic, I no longer think of Scarlet as a 4/5K camera at all.

If you can't overcrank significantly, or at all, at 4/5K, it isn't a 4/5K camera - IMHO, for my money, for my work.

Remember back in the original Scarlet program, when it was a 3K camera? Scarlet Cine? That's what it turns out I actually have. It can shoot at 3K for an HD finish on most S16 glass, and overcrank enough at that resolution. I've basically thrown away the 4/5K capabilities of Scarlet, and use it almost exclusively windowed.

That's how I see and use Scarlet these days. If I want to shoot S35 or larger, I reach for Epic. Or Dragon in a week or two, when my upgrade is finished

I'd STILL like Red to make a pukka S16 camera, in a new small/light brain design, with a S16-size Dragon sensor, with chip and processing optimized for that resolution. Sensor chip yields at that size should be high, and the camera could potentially be pretty cheap.

Mike

That's a great way to think of it, Mike.

And while they are at it, why not put in XLR and BNC connections and ditch the lemos. Make it a real Bolex/BMC Pocket killer- not that those cameras are even a threat to Red anyway, but it would be nice to have and would probably be the final nail in the coffin for Scarlet MX.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

That's a great way to think of it, Mike.

And while they are at it, why not put in XLR and BNC connections and ditch the lemos. Make it a real Bolex/BMC Pocket killer- not that those cameras are even a threat to Red anyway, but it would be nice to have and would probably be the final nail in the coffin for Scarlet MX.

Actually the camera I would compare with what I want would be the Ikonoscop; raw S16. I'm still tempted to buy one at a good price, despite them stopping production. What I really want is something like Ikonoscop, made by Red, shooting Red raw, with a 3K or even 4K spin of the Dragon sensor in S16 or sightly larger frame.

Mike

 

[PatrickFaith]

I've been working on some bigger productions recently and they seem to completely preclude the use of a Scarlet.
...
What are your thoughts?

I think for very low budget features "RED" is the brand, so when people say what do you shoot with "RED" comes first. After that your A camera is a epic dragon and B is either a mx or scarlet (and the person just says ok).

For everything but low budget, almost every cinematographer i know does a camera test, and that test defines what the camera's and lenses will be used per shot type(it's normally a mix of camera's and lenses). I've noticed the very low budget people that totally know what they are doing, will often use a red one or scarlet. I think the extreme low budget independent camera rental scene is a bit different, in that people are often renting that don't know what they are doing and want a lot for nothing.