Scarlet to Dragon upgrade to 19,000 and the state of the Scarlet 'brand'

[Brett Harrison]

I've been working on some bigger productions recently and they seem to completely preclude the use of a Scarlet.

So I wonder if this impression will carry on with Scarlet Dragon.

I'm considering making an additional leap in investment, and going right for Epic Dragon, at 19K upgrade price. I know it will be greatly in demand, and I wonder if people will still avoid the Scarlet out of ignorance for what it is.

Producer: I heard you have a Dragon
me: yes that's correct - it's not an Epic though, it's a Scarlet
Producer: oh Scarlet, like the grey colored one - that's the smaller one right?
me: well, they're the same size and use the same sensor bu-
Producer: so it's the cheaper version of the Dragon? I'm not sure if that's right for the production, we're looking for the most image quality within a budget, I think we will search out a full Dragon.

Obviously there are other things a Scarlet Dragon owner can say and a reasonable person would listen and comprehend, but I wonder how that would pan out, as a rule.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Doug Beatty]

I think the smarter play would be to go to Epic MX and charge half of what you would have charged for a Dragon package. It buys you time to see if folks really will pay a premium to shoot on Dragon.

Most producers won't know Dragon vs. MX unless you explain it to them and even then I'm having a hard time believing they would go with Dragon given the choice to spend less and still shoot on Epic.

Of course, all that logic goes out the window if you are dealing with the highest of high end clients where money is no object and they can only stand to work with the best spec'ed camera du jour.

 

[Brett Harrison]

I think the smarter play would be to go to Epic MX and charge half of what you would have charged for a Dragon package.

Most producers won't know Dragon vs. MX unless you explain it to them and even then I'm having a hard time believing they would go with Dragon given the choice to spend less and still shoot on an Epic.

All that logic goes out the window if you are dealing with the highest of high end clients where money is no object and they can only stand to work with the best spec'ed camera du jour.

Fair call. Though I am thinking about Dragon as an Alexa contender, and I think this branding will fall into place pretty quickly. For those who can afford Alexa, Dragon will be within budget and perhaps cheaper, as well as amenable to handheld gimbals.

At least in my town, Alexa is considered the no-brainer choice for productions of a certain budget.

 

[Matthew Scott]

Some of it comes down to good communication with your client (I deal with this all the time with my Scarlet), but for first time clients who haven't worked with you before, or haven't really investigated your quality of work, the Scarlet will always be the smaller, grey one, so, in situations like you described when the brand/spec of a camera makes the choice, then sadly, the brand/spec of the camera makes the choice...that' not going to change. In fact, I think it will get worse with the full spec Dragon being a new contender for the throne.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Some of it comes down to good communication with your client (I deal with this all the time with my Scarlet), but for first time clients who haven't worked with you before, or haven't really investigated your quality of work, the Scarlet will always be the smaller, grey one, so, in situations like you described when the brand/spec of a camera makes the choice, then sadly, the brand/spec of the camera makes the choice...that' not going to change. In fact, I think it will get worse with the full spec Dragon being a new contender for the throne.

Good analysis Matt. I think unless the owner/DoP can influence the choice by dint of their creative ability, it defaults to what you outlined. In my case, it's all about the gear at the moment, since I am getting hired based on ownership of a MoVI. I guess that's pretty spesific, thought there are plenty of people starting above-the-line careers off the back of gear ownership - it's a technical/artistic discipline after all. Don't know where I am going with this, but I think you've clarified things for me

 

[Phil Holland]

Well from my experience in the past as a Scarlet owner exactly this happened:

- Scarlet Jobs - Used Scarlet
- Jobs that wanted Epic - Rented Epic

Somehow I knew how to use both of those cameras

For me. I'm shooting with Dragon from here on out.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Well from my experience in the past as a Scarlet owner exactly this happened:

- Scarlet Jobs - Used Scarlet
- Jobs that wanted Epic - Rented Epic

Somehow I knew how to use both of those cameras

For me. I'm shooting with Dragon from here on out.

That's just it, some jobs just want: 'Dragon'

I guess one could say 'yeah I own a Dragon' but I will always be specific, personally.

Point taken that people are often educated about the differences, but I would say it's somewhere at or below 50 percent (for non-camera people).

 

[Matthew Scott]

Well from my experience in the past as a Scarlet owner exactly this happened:

- Scarlet Jobs - Used Scarlet
- Jobs that wanted Epic - Rented Epic

Somehow I knew how to use both of those cameras

For me. I'm shooting with Dragon from here on out.

That's fantastic that you own a Dragon, what an amazing camera to own - no doubt you'll be shooting on it from here on out. It's also great that you've come from Scarlet/Epic land, so you know the differences. So what then, do you think about the OP? Have you never been approached by someone who wants you, for your work? And if so, knows nothing about the camera, other than what marketing and the often miss-informed public have told them? To define the market and needs of a film down to specific camera models seems a little narrow minded to me. Maybe we just live in very different worlds....

 

[Phil Holland]

Heh. I realized that was a brief response after I wrote. Let me expand on this a bit.

That's just it, some jobs just want: 'Dragon'

I guess one could say 'yeah I own a Dragon' but I will always be specific, personally.

Point taken that people are often educated about the differences, but I would say it's somewhere at or below 50 percent (for non-camera people).

For me, the general look of Dragon is vastly improved compared to Mysterium-X. Loved my Scarlet and Epic MX, don't get me wrong. But the color, dynamic range, and various other factors make Dragon the right choice whether you are aiming at an Epic or Scarlet really.

That's fantastic that you own a Dragon, what an amazing camera to own - no doubt you'll be shooting on it from here on out. It's also great that you've come from Scarlet/Epic land, so you know the differences. So what then, do you think about the OP? Have you never been approached by someone who wants you, for your work? And if so, knows nothing about the camera, other than what marketing and the often miss-informed public have told them? To define the market and needs of a film down to specific camera models seems a little narrow minded to me.

I would say the vast majority of my hires now want me for my work. The key thing to do is listen to the clients needs, wants, and desires to figure out what camera is best suited for the job. When I was a Scarlet MX shooter most of that was a decision based on if we needed overcranking ability or not. I shot plenty-o-gig on Scarlet MX though and life was good.

The other thing that happens is Client "X" says we want you and if possible we'd like to use this camera. In which case I probe a bit further and figure out why that is. In my case since I'm an owner and really want to shoot with my gear to help pay for my investment I show them my work and exactly what you can do with the system to squelch any doubts they have.

Luckily I have two things going for me. 1. I know how to get good material out of Red cameras and can show that. 2. I didn't start working yesterday and I'm able dissect clients needs in which case they generally trust me to proceed utilizing my professional opinion.

Yes, there are a lot of folks who are very misinformed out there. However, if your work looks good it looks good.

I'm pretty much focused on high resolution image acquisition and delivery and my client base usually wants that and wants me for that reason. Also, in the particular market I'm in my clients pretty much never get to choose which camera I shoot on. Though I have to sometimes work on gigs that are using other systems. Then I need to work with those systems or integrate Red into their workflow and needs. Most of the time people are coming to me for advice on which system to shoot on or simply care about the end result, which is more common. If it's a VFX related shoot most welcome the additional resolution, which is an easy sell.

At the moment I'm pretty comfortable with what Dragon can do and also what it does that the other competing systems do not do. I don't really need any of the other cameras on the market these days. I could see getting into some specialty work like super high frame rate, but that means rental time until Red makes a camera that hits 500-1000fps. That work isn't all the time for me though.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Some people aren't aiming at 'Epic' or 'Scarlet' but at 'Dragon is like Alexa' and don't know/understand the naming scheme of the RED system.

A 'Scarlet job' is only such if and when someone who knows what a Scarlet is, gets involved.

In an ideal world (for Scarlet owners) the camera would be thought of as Dragon-S, not Scarlet-D, since I think the defining aspect of an S-D is the D and not the S.

For this reason I think I will either upgrade to an Epic (just watching The Bling Ring on Blu Ray to help me decide!) or a Dragon-E.

Heh. I realized that was a brief response after I wrote. Let me expand on this a bit.




For me, the general look of Dragon is vastly improved compared to Mysterium-X. Loved my Scarlet and Epic MX, don't get me wrong. But the color, dynamic range, and various other factors make Dragon the right choice whether you are aiming at an Epic or Scarlet really.




I would say the vast majority of my hires now want me for my work. The key thing to do is listen to the clients needs, wants, and desires to figure out what camera is best suited for the job. When I was a Scarlet MX shooter most of that was a decision based on if we needed overcranking ability or not. I shot plenty-o-gig on Scarlet MX though and life was good.

The other thing that happens is Client "X" says we want you and if possible we'd like to use this camera. In which case I probe a bit further and figure out why that is. In my case since I'm an owner and really want to shoot with my gear to help pay for my investment I show them my work and exactly what you can do with the system to squelch any doubts they have.

Luckily I have two things going for me. 1. I know how to get good material out of Red cameras and can show that. 2. I didn't start working yesterday and I'm able dissect clients needs in which case they generally trust me to proceed utilizing my professional opinion.

Yes, there are a lot of folks who are very misinformed out there. However, if your work looks good it looks good.

I'm pretty much focused on high resolution image acquisition and delivery and my client base usually wants that and wants me for that reason. Also, in the particular market I'm in my clients pretty much never get to choose which camera I shoot on. Though I have to sometimes work on gigs that are using other systems. Then I need to work with those systems or integrate Red into their workflow and needs. Most of the time people are coming to me for advice on which system to shoot on or simply care about the end result, which is more common. If it's a VFX related shoot most welcome the additional resolution, which is an easy sell.

At the moment I'm pretty comfortable with what Dragon can do and also what it does that the other competing systems do not do. I don't really need any of the other cameras on the market these days. I could see getting into some specialty work like super high frame rate, but that means rental time until Red makes a camera that hits 500-1000fps. That work isn't all the time for me though.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I had a difficult time with my Scarlet personally marketing wise. I finally doubled down on an Epic, and now tripled down on Dragon. Its going better now but its a rental unit realistically and I work as a wrangler. So for rental chasing the latest and greatest is kind of important. If you can make good shots on MX whether its Scarlet or Epic shouldn't matter. Some producers may want the higher end model for frame rates, but its better to focus on selling yourself and leave camera choice out of the discussion entirely. Better to let then pick it then try to sell your stuff on them for a mere kit rental. If they don't want the kit and you come off too strong it won't make for good relations ya know? I try to just be brand agnostic and let them pick whatever it is that fancies them as far as workflow goes and I just try to roll with the punches

 

[Philipe Ratton]

I dont think it will change because of dragon.
The perception between scarlet and epic will be the same as now.

 

[Doug Beatty]

Given the choice between Scarlet Dragon and Epic MX, what camera do you think producers would lean towards?

SD is a nice enthusiast camera or B camera, and I'd love to own one some day, but I'm not so sure it will ever be in demand given the fact that a lot of original Scarlet owners are now Epic owners.

 

[Ivan McCullough]

If you stretch the truth a little and tell prospective clients a Scarlet is what RED call a crippled EPIC and how it is crippled is in frame rates (no need to get into compression, eyes will glaze over, believe me), then as a cheaper option it looks appealing. Trying to explain all the differences will just make it sound like its less than the camera it is.

 

[Ted Parkes]

I get hired for my work. And when clients ask about camera I tell them I will shoot on the best camera for their project. There are a lot of choices out there. Sometimes the camera is dictated by the clients Post flow. But as a Scarlet now Epic owner I tell my clients in most situations I am most comfortable with my Epic and as an owner I can offer better bang for their buck on the camera package, but I don't give it away. Thats not good for anyone in the biz. I am in line for Dragon but have to explore the ramifications shooting Dragon will have on the Post work flow. Most of what I shoot is 4 & 5K HD. That said the Epic has been an easier sell then my Scarlet.

 

[Marcel Schnellinger]

hmm, its funny that clients just sometimes are to nerdy about equipment. yeah, when we need higher framerates, what else to do. I always try to make em understand that the cam is just as good as the people you have on the project.
Can have the newest and dopest cam, if your light is wrong, bad post, blah blah, its bad. You can shoot cinema with a Scarlet and you could sell as a dragon with the right team. Most clients wouldn't even see she difference.

 

[Clayton Burkhart]

In terms of the rental market Alexa and Dragon rent at the same rate now in Europe.
Epic now rents at HALF of either of those.
Scarlet isn't even on the menu.

I think that if you consider that Scarlet should probably rent at half of the Epic...well you do the figures.
I think it's going to be a tough sell, even with Dragon.

 

[Jeff Brown]

I have two Scarlets- they've never rented except for parts (media etc) backup body or freebies. It always goes to an Epic instead.

I've made more on the SSDs in the kits than renting the cameras.

It's not a rental camera it's an owner camera. For low budgets why Rent a raw camera when you can rent a C300 or an F5 and have a cheap workflow.

Fortunately I'll be bumping them to MX Epics to fill a hole while my epic bodies are away for Dragon and eventually get them to Dragon Epic too.

Nothing against Scarlets- they are great value but in my market they don't work (for the same reason I passed on Blackmagic cameras etc).

 

[Michael Dalton]

I struggle to understand why someone would upgrade a scarlet to a dragon, vs upgrading to an epic. The colour of dragon is better, and dynamic range, but it only shoots 5k. I don't know what others say, but I'd take a full epic over the new colour and dynamic range.

You can always upgrade and epic, but not a scarlet dragon.

 

[TD Wood]

I struggle to understand why someone would upgrade a scarlet to a dragon, vs upgrading to an epic. The colour of dragon is better, and dynamic range, but it only shoots 5k. I don't know what others say, but I'd take a full epic over the new colour and dynamic range.

You can always upgrade and epic, but not a scarlet dragon.

Well, I struggle to understand your struggle to understand. To each his own. I mean, it all depends on your business/creative/artistic needs. I admit having struggled with the decision, but for my line of work (I don't rent the camera), I hardly need higher frame rates. As a matter of fact (don't jump on me for saying this), I think people overuse slowmotion. It has become so readily available I guess that I hardly ever see slow motion used properly. It has become a cheap trendy artifact in most cases to hide weak storytelling IMMO.

"But it only shoots 5K...". Well, 6K is great, but you make it sound as if 5k was shit.

I love what RED has done for the industry and for me personally... and couldn't be happier with my Scarlet, but somehow RED's "obsolence obsolete" mantra is something I have become skeptical about. Spending 9500 - more than the actual cost of the Scarlet X brain- every year or two is not my idea of "obsolence obsolete". So the real question in my case is: Having only 9500 to spend, what is a better camera for me? Scarlet Dragon or EPIC MX (both 5K, except Scarlet D records 6K at 12fps)? No doubt, Scarlet Dragon.

Conclusion: it is a hard choice but it all depends on what your real needs are.