Scarlet owners- Upgrade or trade-in? Epic-X or Scarlet-D? What say you and WHY?

[Terry VerHaar]

Right now, I am planning to go to Epic Dragon by way of Epic-X trade up. I just feel like I don't want to be dead-ended at Scarlet Dragon (not that I think that would be all that terrible) and I am hoping the two stage upgrade path will be open long enough to have a breather after the initial Scarlet to Epic trade-up. With all the new info coming out about Dragon, I know I'll want to get there somehow. I also think I might be able to have an Epic Dragon in not too much more time than the Scarlet Dragon will be made available; I just think that may take awhile. Meanwhile, I'll be shooting Epic - not too shabby.

Of course, like all things RED - everything is subject to change. :smiley:

 

[Brian Merlen]

i got an epic...i don't miss my scarlet at all with these frame rates! oh and i have much more delusions of grandeur. You should def add that part to your pros/cons list... delusions of grandeur are a big factor for my purchasing choices lol!

basically i'm two stepping up to my dragon... i signed up for dragon the second my epic came...

 

[Chad Cooper]

IMO Dragon is going to be so awesome that the only reason you would go with the Epic is the fact that it is the only way to eventually get to Dragon Epic. (As far as we know anyway)

If I were forced to pick one knowing that I would never be able to upgrade again, I would for 100% sure pick Dragon. However, for me I plan to go Epic (in about a month) with the idea that once the Dragon path is even available to me I will be able to afford the second $9500.

Dragon is the furure and I have a feeling that MX will be looking pretty long in the tooth a year from now.

Just my $0.02

Couldn't agree more--though MX will never get old....... I could not be more excited about Scarlet Dragon than Epic.... but its all about what you use the most. Maybe it's because the highest speed I've ever shot on Epic-X is 120fps anyway. If you need high speed, than epic-X has a big advantage, but other than that I think the key debate is in how much better 6k downsampled to 4k is than 5k downsampled to 4k. 4k displays are just beginning to emerge and will probably be the new standard until Red releases their next sensor, or probably a whole new camera at that point. the red monster. the blue dragon. or the red two maybe.......

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

So in other words sounds like everyone is wrestling with similar choices; good to know I'm not the only one.

I do have a question: Will RED ever sell the Scarlet-Dragon body to the general public? It doesn't appear to be the case.

 

[Mark T Workman]

Right now, I am planning to go to Epic Dragon by way of Epic-X trade up. I just feel like I don't want to be dead-ended at Scarlet Dragon (not that I think that would be all that terrible) and I am hoping the two stage upgrade path will be open long enough to have a breather after the initial Scarlet to Epic trade-up. With all the new info coming out about Dragon, I know I'll want to get there somehow. I also think I might be able to have an Epic Dragon in not too much more time than the Scarlet Dragon will be made available; I just think that may take awhile. Meanwhile, I'll be shooting Epic - not too shabby.

Of course, like all things RED - everything is subject to change. :smiley:

You are a wise one Terry! I do think RED would be just foolish to start drawing RED LINES/Cut offs when the editing situation is not at all clear or even AN OPTION YET! And will you be editing on a rental plan for the rest of your days??? Under these conditions, neither Dragon really tempts me! Yet I did fork over for a low Ae Creative Cloud monthly to test out the new bi cubic processing, DPX importer/exporter and to be sure I can test out that Dragon patch when it comes!
My next camera will probably be an Epic too but I'm keeping an open mind...

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Q: Why can't Scarlet-Dragon do 6K, even at 12fps? If it can do 5K 60fps it must not be the chipset but either 1) RED restricted it or 2) technically impossible. Anyone know?

 

[Jason Ano]

I finally have the finances to do an upgrade right now but I'm also in debate. I was pretty much 90% on the Epic-X trade-in, but I sat down and evaluated all my jobs this past year. I mainly stay at 24p, but when I do slow-motion work, I only really stick to 48fps or 96fps (epic rentals) and 50% of the time I'm in a low light situation. So now the Scarlet-Dragon has popped up in my radar again since I can do 24-48fps @ 5k and 75 @4k. How much of a difference can 96 be from 75 anyway? When I shoot with an Epic along with my Scarlet, I don't really see a difference in quality (as it should be), but I am impatiently and eagerly awaiting to see Dragon footy vs mysterium side by sides.

 

[Chase M. Wrenn]

I'm also stuck in this internal debate, but with another factor...I don't want to be rid of my #65 serial number and camera. I like being an early number, but if I went the Epic route, I'd lose that...so I could beef her up a bit with a Dragon upgrade...but those Epic framerates would be good for the sports I try to shoot (tennis, etc.) It's a tough decision to make...

 

[Ben Roper]

Having played with a Dragon this evening i'm definitely looking to upgrade both our Scarlets to S-D eventually, although they're going to need to pay for that FIRST! Low light is huge for me, and it's true - this sensor really does produce images very close to what you see with your own eyes...

 

[Phil Holland]

Q: Why can't Scarlet-Dragon do 6K, even at 12fps? If it can do 5K 60fps it must not be the chipset but either 1) RED restricted it or 2) technically impossible. Anyone know?

Nothing has been finalized yet. However, from the sounds of it at NAB this year it would appear that the physical sensor size would be the 5K dimensions, which would help save on production costs actually.

However, much like everything, anything can change until it's actually available.

I finally have the finances to do an upgrade right now but I'm also in debate. I was pretty much 90% on the Epic-X trade-in, but I sat down and evaluated all my jobs this past year. I mainly stay at 24p, but when I do slow-motion work, I only really stick to 48fps or 96fps (epic rentals) and 50% of the time I'm in a low light situation. So now the Scarlet-Dragon has popped up in my radar again since I can do 24-48fps @ 5k and 75 @4k. How much of a difference can 96 be from 75 anyway? When I shoot with an Epic along with my Scarlet, I don't really see a difference in quality (as it should be), but I am impatiently and eagerly awaiting to see Dragon footy vs mysterium side by sides.

A few ways to really look at it. It's stated that Epic Dragon can do up to 120fps at 5K, which is significant. The vast majority of my over cranked shots land in 72 or 96 fps as well. However I've done plenty of 48 and 60. Just depends.

Food for thought. I have now worked on 3 "HFR" productions. Two shot 48fps and one shot 60fps time base. Having the ability to shoot over cranked in that arena is somewhat important to me at the moment.

Between working with Mysterium-X 4K and 5K material I do see a difference. At 4K it's sort of a wash, although on Epic I'm rarely shooting below 5:1 for normal FPS. Dragon is said to improve the REDCODE compression which directly effects the quality of your footage and the length of recording time on your media. More efficient and cleaner files = high compression ratios maintaining high frequency detail. That will be one I need to really test out, but it's so far looking that way.

Just a quick note from me on my Epic experience thus far. The biggest difference between Scarlet and Epic in my personal journey is that for "normal" shooting I'm not shooting below 5K that much. Although since Epic w/ Mysterium-X's release I certainly have worked and shot on production shooting at 4K.

With Dragon on the horizon and being fortunate to get up close and somewhat personal with it I see pretty much how the future of my workflows are going to look. 6K Full occasionally, 6K HD and 6K WS probably more. 5.5K likely a bunch, but I think mostly we'll shoot 6K HD in those situations for more "freedom". 5K I could see using a lot actually. Especially if you reallly want to stay in the sweet spot of most cinema glass. I can see a lot of potential behind certain other resolutions found within the sensor, but I'll have to wait and see if that concept plays well with my particular pipelines. 6000x3000 just sounds too good to pass up.

However, I knew particularly at NAB that Epic Dragon was my path. However, I also knew that Epic-X was available and could help on my gigs leading up to Dragon's release. So my decision boiled down to that.

I'm also stuck in this internal debate, but with another factor...I don't want to be rid of my #65 serial number and camera. I like being an early number, but if I went the Epic route, I'd lose that...so I could beef her up a bit with a Dragon upgrade...but those Epic framerates would be good for the sports I try to shoot (tennis, etc.) It's a tough decision to make...

I also had that brief glimmer of a though. I think Scarlet Dragon may maintain their serial perhaps. Who knows though. However, if a beefier camera is something you desire or need a serial number shouldn't be holding you back. That's pretty much how my brain worked on that call.

 

[ignacio guzman]

It's an epic struggle to decide on but I think I'm going scarlet dragon. I need the lowlight capability and with the improved recording ratios,dynamic range, and color science it just makes it the right choice for me. While I won't be able to shoot 6k thats ok I can live without it. I think the SD will still be a great B cam to pair with an Epic Dragon. You never hear anyone complaining when they mix 3k footage with 4k footage. Same can be said with 4k and 5k. (Yes I know there is a difference but only us geeks will really tell the difference, not a regular audience.) Yes I will likely won't be able to upgrade to the ED but thats ok because I'll make my money back either way. If I need 6k I rent an ED. At the end of it all I'm still in the game with an extra 10k in my savings.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

[*]I feel like an Epic is still a beast of a camera, and will open new opportunities to shoot certain ways/things that I didn't/couldn't have with my Scarlet. I've worked with a few Epic rentals before and they were a lot of fun to shoot with.
[*]Easier to rent than Scarlet, if that was your thing.

Yes in a world where Epic-X is the top of the line camera, but in a world where Dragon is top of the line? People renting will want the top of the line camera and the latest sensor, why would they rent a 3-year-old Epic with a 4-year-old sensor when they can now get a camera with the much improved Dragon sensor?

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Yes in a world where Epic-X is the top of the line camera, but in a world where Dragon is top of the line? People renting will want the top of the line camera and the latest sensor, why would they rent a 3-year-old Epic with a 4-year-old sensor when they can now get a camera with the much improved Dragon sensor?

Noah- How long until Epic-Ds are common place in rental houses? 6 months? A year? Being "tied up" with an Epic-X until your Epic-D isn't that bad, you know? I mean, just look at some of the stuff this 4 yr old sensor has shot and you'd realize life could be worse.

Yes, a Scarlet-D is tempting, and I'm still on the fence, but I can see the benefits of both paths.

 

[Dustin Dooley]

I pulled the trigger on the Scarlet D right away. I do tons of live events where I do not have control over lighting and no need for high frame rates. The increased sensitivity will hopefully decrease my need for neat video. Also I already have people asking for Dragon and they are not making the Scarlet Epic distinction. They just want the new sensor. My thoughts are I could either have chosen the Epic and would answer this question by saying, "no dragon but I have an Epic" or because I chose the Scarlet D I can say, "yeah I have the dragon".

 

[Nathan Apffel]

My scarlet is on the list for the Dragon upgrade. I wrestle with my decision all the time, but each of us use our tools differently, and for myself and the work I do, the Scarlet Dragon is the right path. 50% of my work in natural light/ very minimal tweaking. The low light/ added DR will be a God send in this situation.

I love using the sun as a main light source/ backlight, etc to promote harsh shadow, etc. Again Dragon will give me the power to find detail in the darks and save highlight detail at the same time.

Frame rates. I have only ever shot 120FPS on my Scarlet a few times - way to soft to use IMO, but I am really excited for 100FPS at 3K.

If the Dragon sensor will be the pinnacle of sensors for the next 4-5 years, then the ROI will be worth it ten fold. At that point, I would guess Red will have a new body in the works. Obsolesce obsolete only works for so long, until technology throws unforeseen changes into the mix.

My two cents.

 

[Luca Orlandi]

RED EUROPE has already received my SCARLET-X 1300,
Now I'm waiting for the EPIC-X ... my Dragon UPGRADE is planned for 2014.

 

[Adam J. Craig]

I went with the EPIC-MX upgrade because I've decided to stop chasing the latest and greatest and finally settle with good pro level camera. Considering the number of big budget feature films shot with the EPIC, i forsee it being useful for many years. Also, I'm now not forced to upgrade to Adobe CC.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Noah- How long until Epic-Ds are common place in rental houses? 6 months? A year? Being "tied up" with an Epic-X until your Epic-D isn't that bad, you know? I mean, just look at some of the stuff this 4 yr old sensor has shot and you'd realize life could be worse.

Yes, a Scarlet-D is tempting, and I'm still on the fence, but I can see the benefits of both paths.

Common place is one thing, but they are already starting to show up this month, could be in most major cities next month, though supply is likely to be low. Epic-X is still a good camera right now and it's age is greatly balanced by the ability to futher upgrade to Epic Dragon. It sounded like the Epic-X to Epic-D upgrade time frame may be limited, though, so Epic-X is a great option in the meantime, but might not be a great option for people who can't/won't spend $30k on a brain or don't have $20k ready to go so they can take advantage of the full Epic-D upgrade option before it runs out. I chose Scarlet-D because I don't want to spend $30k on a camera, since most of the difference between Epic and Scarlet is frame rates, which are a bit underwhelming to me anyway after using the FS700 for high-speed work and not having to sacrifice sensor size for high frame rates. Also I think there may be an important market for a lower cost Dragon camera that rents for a slightly lower rate.

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Not sure where you read that the Epic-X to Epic-D upgrade path was limited. RED has made no announcement and Jarred has stated in different threads that it will be around for a while. If the past is any indication, a 2 year window is a likely scenario, although anything can change.

 

[Eric Santiago]

Not sure where you read that the Epic-X to Epic-D upgrade path was limited. RED has made no announcement and Jarred has stated in different threads that it will be around for a while. If the past is any indication, a 2 year window is a likely scenario, although anything can change.

If there was enough Scarlet bodies out there I am sure this option will be around for awhile.

Im working towards sooner than later with an EPIC upgrade.

I cant judge what the Scarlet-D will bring until I see more examples.

I am counting on it though