Scarlet owners and their reactions this week

[Terry VerHaar]

Steve you have laid out your case in several threads now and it just doesn't hold water. You are acting liking you expect a highly technical product to stay current forever in an industry that is moving at light speed. Get over it!

 

[Peter Majtan]

What really bother us with the Red system is :

- high cost of needed accessories to make it work (LCD, handles, new fan, etc...)

You don't need the new fan - old one works just as it has been for over a year now. While You do need some accessories - these could be minimized and most are required for the BMC as well...

- noise of the camera

Have you actually used the camera? In the 1+ years I have been using it I have never had an issue with the noise of the camera. Understanding how to use the fan menu is the key...

- loss of warranty when the camera is sold

If you are buying the camera with the intention of selling it before the warranty expires - you might want to re-evaluate your buying decision.
RED's are built like a tank and meant to last for a minimum of 5 years - and I am talking from a personal experience.
Early RED ONEs work just as great as they did 5 years ago and produce even better imagery then they did back then...
These are the only cameras I have ever owned/used (and there have been dozens from all the top brands) that actually get better with age... ;o)

- no possibility of buying the Red gear in Euros with a Paypal or a credit card without paying fees (2% !)

You can opt to do a bank transfer instead of using credit card. Just contact your bomb rep (if you have one), or any other RED sales person...

- no rental possibilities to get some money back (at least here in France)

Now that I find hard to believe. Sure - Scarlet rarely does rent for the "normal" big budget features and TVC, but they are commonly used for independent films, music videos, documentaries, corporate films, low-budget TVCs and many other projects. In the 1+ year I have had the camera it has paid itself off with ease. Just in the last 5 months it paid off a new (used) $ 7500 car I needed to buy for my work...

All the above aside - there is so much more difference between the Scarlet and BMC then just the 4K "similarities"...

Ultimately it is your choice...

P

 

[steve duncan]

Whoa whoa whoa.... did you buy a Scarlet and did nothing with it, and was hoping to upgrade, not to a Scarlet Dragon, but to an EPIC Dragon for what, $12k more would be reasonable to you? Did you buy your Scarlet thinking it would hold its whole value? Have you ever bought a piece of technology, or a car where that is the case? Though some numbers may add up, the mentality really doesn't. Let me try to explain.

Let's say I bought a Honda for $9k. Got to use it for a few months, with the promise that I would be able to upgrade it to a better car later on. That car brought me home. Saved me money on public transportation. Got me to places I wouldn't have been able to get if I were only to rely on rentals, public transportation, or a good friend letting me borrow their car. In fact it even got me a job that paid a $10k profit (which I know is not that much, but better than nothing right?) that I couldn't have gotten if I didn't have that Honda.

Now they are giving me an option to upgrade to a Mercedes, which I could never be able to afford in one hit. In the end, it's easier to get ahold of $9k than $15k. I'd have to go through all the trouble of selling my Honda, and that is time "wasted" I cannot afford to loose at this time. I might even have to wait a long time till I get that Mercedes and will be car-less for a while. Not only that, they are giving me the option where I could even pay another $9k and get an even better car!

So the day my friend laughs at me because he waited and "paid less" I'll also know that because He didn't get to have a car, he wasted a lot of opportunities he could've had such as a 10k profit gig. He didn't learn as much as I did during that time, and didn't have the joy of owning that car, and not have to worry about how will I get to my destination next. Plus he might have to wait much longer in him getting than Mercedes than I will. And I'll be the one laughing inside.

A lot of us here love what we do and don't put numbers on a thing that is alive and breathing and is not meant to be used as a doorstop. The fact that a company is enabling us do something NOW and not tomorrow is incredible. Any other company would just tweak the insides maybe change the exterior a bit and I would have to pay THE WHOLE PRICE, not the update price. Like I said I could sell my old equipment and feel like I was paying the update price, but that is time wasted I cannot afford to loose and in fact is much more valuable to me.

Depending on when you bought it of course.... my problem isn't just the cost-- it's also what they charging new people to buy in. RED currently sells scarlets for 8K. The upgrade price to Epic Dragon is 19K. that puts you at 27K and you only get a 90 day warranty. The person that waits til the Epic is ready shouldn't get the Epic at 24k with a yr warranty. He should pay the same price in my opinion. the 6 mnths he has the camera is a benefit, but the person has also put money in RED's coffers, and is also giving back RED a kickass 5k sensor- that i'm sure is worth a few grand. All i'm saying is that it should've been even. Nobody who bought into RED over the past year should pay for than a total of 24K to get to Epic Dragon. In fact, as loyal RED owners, we should've been at a bit of a discount. It should've been 6k for an Epic upgrade with a yr warranty, and 13k for a Scarlet upgrade to Epic Dragon. The difference in price is a black magic camera plus a 5D mark III

Sensor should've cost 6K, not 9.5K.. it's a ridiculously high number in my opinion, and I think it's going to cost RED. I think i'm pretty reasonable- I spent at least 25k at the RED store over the past couple of years. But charging me 20% more to upgrade a sensor, than the entire camera currently sells for is ridiculous. Worse, their pricing scheme-- making the upgrades expensive, while making a new purchase relatively cheap, quickly brings down the value of both the Scarlet and Epic.

 

[Peter Majtan]

P.S. Also IMO as soon as I hear the "SSD price" argument I believe the RED system is the wrong system for that owner.Obviously they've never shot 400ft of 35mm neg stock + processing + time !

That - a thousand times!!!

IMHO there are only two types of people who should invested into camera system that costs $ 10K+

1. A professional that gets paid for his work with the camera / or has at least a secured client base that will rent the camera...
2. Student / hobbyist / independent content creator - who is buying it to learn or use it for his own projects / hobby and is fully aware what is he getting himself into financially and can afford it...

If You are neither - you should take a hard look at why would you invest so much money for such a camera system...
If You are one of the above (or a combination) - then you clearly see that what RED is doing has no precedent in our industry and is beyond generous. Quite the opposite of greed...

Steve has officially "upgraded" to a troll status for me, no offense...

P

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Sensor should've cost 6K, not 9.5K.. it's a ridiculously high number in my opinion, and I think it's going to cost RED.

1) It's not the price of just a sensor. Do you know what an ASIC is? Google it. They had to make new ones for Dragon. Translation: Your Scarlet will be gutted and the innards replaced. They aren't just swapping out a sensor.

2) What is your opinion based on? What you can afford? Do you think RED just arbitrarily makes up prices? Who are you to decide what they should charge for anything? Do you know what their R&D and manufacturing costs are? How about their overhead?

Honestly Steve. Your whining is getting really old.

 

[steve duncan]

You guys don't get it. Steve is a camera investor and collector. He keeps his cameras on a shelf in their original packaging and waits for prices to go up. So far, it looks like he's not doing so well and he's got to find someone to blame. I think he should give BM a shot next round. I'm sure that will work out great. Used ones will be selling for $8K or more by this time next year... Guaranteed!

just for the record, no CEO that I know of promised a Scarlet to Dragon upgrade for $6K.

Sorry, do I know you? I use the RED quite frequently on shoots- I actually run a 12,000 sqft media facility in Manhattan with cyc wall studios, and have clients ranging from Pharrell to Bravo... Back to the subject at hand: I wanted a path to upgrade the Scarlet to the full potential of the Dragon Sensor... and I was willing to pay a ton of money to get there. I knew 6K wouldn't get me there, but 19K is ludicrous. For the same 19K I can:

1) Keep my Scarlet, which kicks ass shooting at 4K,
2) Buy a new Canon 5D Mark III ($3,000)
3) PreOrder 2 new black magic 4K cameras ($8,000)
4) purchase some black magic accessories ($3,000)
5) Buy a couple new Canon Lenses ($5,000)

you're telling me that a production house like mine, should pay 19K to enjoy the new sensor as opposed to getting 3 new cameras and a couple lenses? I'm not Peter Jackson, I was just a business man hoping RED was going to give me a decent avenue for an affordable upgrade. Sorry, I don't see it here.

 

[Mike Garrick]

A longtime ago I posted on speculation thread here, how much Scarlet upgrade to some form of Dragon would be. In amongst all the Scarlet optimists saying 6k because the Epic upgrade would be 6k (wake up that was never going to happen) I posted in excess of 12K...& not for the moment expecting then Scarlet Dragon = Epic Dragon.

So it looks like I was wrong I can now upgrade to Scarlet Dragon for 9.5k that's a saving of 2.5k.

But because its not this mythical 6k Scarlet upgrade price people are bitch'n............... starting to sound like the 3k for 3k argument all over again.

 

[Noel R.]

This is amazing. I can't believe people are complaining, thinking they've somehow been ripped off because RED is charging $9,500 for what is essentially a new camera, not to mention what will be the highest performing camera on the planet. 2000 native iso, and 15+ stops of dynamic range, and 5K at this price is unheard of. What are you comparing to? What are the Arri Alexa specs, and how much are they charging? When you compare apples to apples this is an amazing deal.

The Black Magic camera seems like a great camera, but I don't think it depreciates the value of the Scarlet. REDcode is a big deal. The amount of hard drive space you will need to record 4K ProRes is a big problem. Proffessional shoots and renters will still lean over to Epic Dragon, and second Scarlet Dragon next because they will always opt to shoot with the best.

 

[Ces Peynetti]

Depending on when you bought it of course.... my problem isn't just the cost-- it's also what they charging new people to buy in. RED currently sells scarlets for 8K. The upgrade price to Epic Dragon is 19K. that puts you at 27K and you only get a 90 day warranty. The person that waits til the Epic is ready shouldn't get the Epic at 24k with a yr warranty. He should pay the same price in my opinion. .

A NEW Scarlet costs 8k. Not one that was bout 6 months ago, or 2 months ago, or I'll be so bold to say 2 weeks ago. You are the one that bought an extended warranty when you knew you would potentially upgrade 6 months later (I don't think there was ever word of warranty carrying over was there?)

It may suck that you think other people are getting a better deal than you, but I really think you didn't get a good deal because instead of focusing on making your grass look green, you are only focusing on the grass on the other side.

I have a Scarlet and saved for 5 years to buy it. Though I would have loved to be an early adopter, I couldn't even afford more than eating ramen back then. Since I got my camera I've squeezed the juice out of my camera as much as I have been able to, and have been able to learn things I would have never been able to learn if I just waited for Dragon. If I had just waited, I would still be saving money and probably wouldn't be able to afford an Epic yet I'm sure. Because I've used my camera and have gotten MUCH more than those $3k difference that you are getting on your math, so much so I'm thinking of upgrading one Scarlet to Dragon, AND getting an EPIC. Work with them and soon after updating that EPIC to Dragon.

At the same time, it's not always about having the best and the greatest. Believe me, I wish I had an Epic instead of a Scarlet every day I used the camera since it's somewhat of a gateway drug. My Scarlet is as good today as it was yesterday. Someone tells me the monetary value decreased... but my talent, and the quality of my camera hasn't.

 

[steve duncan]

1) It's not the price of just a sensor. Do you know what an ASIC is? Google it. They had to make new ones for Dragon. Translation: Your Scarlet will be gutted and the innards replaced. They aren't just swapping out a sensor.

2) What is your opinion based on? What you can afford? Do you think RED just arbitrarily makes up prices? Who are you to decide what they should charge for anything? Do you know what their R&D and manufacturing costs are? How about their overhead?

My opinion is based on two facts. 1) we know that they don't need a new ASIC to turn the Scarlet into the EPIC- they're already produced. That 9.5K price tag is ludicrous to bring the Scarlet up to an Epic.

2) The new technology can't be too much (new Asic plus new Sensor) if they're only charging new customers 24K for a new dragon epic. That's only 6K more than they're charging for a current Epic. And when you turn in your epic for an upgrade, they don't rip out the insides- they carefully take them out and refurbish them.

The math doesn't lie... you can't have it both ways. you can't charge new clients only 24k for a new dragon epic, and then cry to your customer base and say it's so expensive, that's why were charging you 19k to get you there, and btw, were going to take your Scarlet that we sell for 8K on our website.

Guys, i'm not trying to bitch... it's 12 yrs being an analyst- numbers don't lie. We're overpaying for the upgrades to subsidize RED getting new customers. it's smart business. by getting them in at 24k, RED knows they'll spend another 15k. Us? Most of us already blew our load buying gear for our REDs. We're low priority in their new financial picture. RED knows their current owners are loyal, and not going to sit back while new owners steal their thunder and clients with the newest technology. I know what they did-- apple has been doing it for years. Think it sucks. Hope you guys see through the numbers. I still think they blew it. I still think many of us current RED users were still willing to shell out new money. And industry people, and more importantly clients, haven't been buying into RED. Meaning it's not just about frame rates and 6K. And this move may irk some of their core users.

 

[Peter Majtan]

For the same 19K I can:

1) Keep my Scarlet, which kicks ass shooting at 4K,
2) Buy a new Canon 5D Mark III ($3,000)
3) PreOrder 2 new black magic 4K cameras ($8,000)
4) purchase some black magic accessories ($3,000)
5) Buy a couple new Canon Lenses ($5,000)

1st - none of the above (even in a combination) will give you 6K RAW imagery with the 16+ stops of DR and IQ - that, even thou we are yet to see, will clearly exceed the current MX sensor - as has been confirmed by Graeme, whom I know personally and trust absolutely... So in that sense you are comparing apples with oranges. That like saying why should I buy $70K BMW M5, when I can get 3 Toyota Corollas for the same price. Obviously there are people who prefer the BMW, as they are people who prefer the 3 Corollas. You are obviously the latter - and there is nothing wrong with that. Just don't go around and complain about the cost the the BMW (new or trade in for that matter)...

2nd - I rather take that $11K (your options 3 & 4) and buy the upgrade to MX Epic for $9K - knowing that there is established market for Epic-MX rental and other paid jobs. I would keep the $2K left over aside for any (however unlikely) after-warranty repairs I may need once the 90-days expires... In my personal case I know I will make so much more money with the Epic-MX, then I could ever make with the two 4K BMCs. You obviously need to evaluate yours...

P

 

[Shane Kelly]

I'll simplify for you.


Scenario Two: The Epic Owner

Same story as above except in January 2013, we buy the RED Epic for $18,000. Three months later you head to the store to find out that the Dragon upgrade is 9.5K putting your total cost at around 27.5K. After seeing the same camera being sold to a new buyer for 24K, I got pretty pissed at the 3.5K mark up. I understand that I got a few months use of the camera, but still-- shouldn't I be rewarded for being an owner of the camera-- or at least pay the same? It's not a lot of money but it's the principle. The sensor seemed fair at the original price of 6K, but 9.5K is really expensive. And RED isn't letting me keep the old sensor or giving me compensation. They're keeping a rock solid sensor that they will reuse in another camera ON TOP of the 9.5k charge for the new dragon sensor. Meaning it's actually closer to 11k or 12k benefit to RED for me to upgrade. If they're getting an 11k benefit for the upgrade, on top of the 18k I recently paid-- thats a 25% mark up to the price they're charging new customers. Now I'm not a hater or anything, but I work hard for my money, and paying that much more just a few months later seems really unfair. I'm pretty upset. If they stuck with the 6K upgrade price, I would've been a fan boy for life. And I was going to spend another 10K at the RED store this week, but now I feel disillusioned with RED.

Maybe i'll hold off on the upgrade and see what other camera companies are doing. I saw that Black Magic at NAB is offering a 4K camera to be available at the end of this year. For the same price of the RED upgrade, I could keep my 5K Epic and buy two Black Magic 4K Cameras next year. They seemed committed to keeping prices really low-- something that I though RED was committed to doing. Now I'm not so sure. What a shame. I was ready to spend all this money at RED and be a RED fan for life, but it seems they got greedy. Not over a lot of money mind you, but enough to make me really rethink this company. A company I've been boasting about for so long. Maybe they'll come to their senses. It's just the principle- I hate being like this, but I get jaded pretty quickly.

This is behavior I'd expect from Apple, not a cutting edge young company that seemed to be the antithesis of the greedy big company. Now I'm thinking Black Magic could be that company I was hoping RED to be. They're having issues like any new company, but I like what they're trying to do. I don't really want to switch camera makers, but now i'm thinking to wait and test the waters. If not Black Magic, maybe a new company. And I can already shoot in 5k with my epic, do I really need to spend all this money for an upgrade that's untested? And only a 90 day warranty on a new sensor? What happens if this has problems on a big production shoot? Is it worth the risk to buy into a technology that already works great- that none of my clients are asking for? For 6K i would've upgraded. For 9.5K-- sorry guys, i'll get back to you in a year when you can prove the sensor works, and black magic and sony haven't offered something much better for less

Steve does have a point here. Paying that much money for a sensor that we haven't seen one frame from doesn't make any sense to me at all. Especially when I can buy an Epic dragon in a few months for cheaper that my epic price + upgrade.

 

[Peter Majtan]

The math doesn't lie... you can't have it both ways. you can't charge new clients only 24k for a new dragon epic, and then cry to your customer base and say it's so expensive, that's why were charging you 19k to get you there, and btw, were going to take your Scarlet that we sell for 8K on our website.

Your math doesn't lie - it just sucks... You can buy the same new camera for 24K just as any of the "newcomers" and get the SAME EXACT DEAL, including the long warranty. Not to mention you get to keep your existing camera...

The 19K does not take you "there". It takes you somewhere else - and nobody is forcing you to go there...

Also - they don't sell your used camera on their website for 8K. They sell a brand new Scarlet for 7950 with proper warranty an no need for transfer / evaluation fee. So again apples and oranges...

Guys, i'm not trying to bitch... it's 12 yrs being an analyst- numbers don't lie.

I feel sorry for anyone that ever hired you for your analytic skills. Your math sucks - and with math being the basis for any analytic work - its no surprise to see your "results"...

We don't mind hearing personal opinions voiced in a proper and polite manner. I have myself voiced several concerns here in such a way...
But your arrogant outburst of rage fueled by blunt refusal to see, combined with baseless name-calling of RED and their business practices - is making you into one picture perfect example of a troll. Expect no sympathy nor respect from anyone here, much less from RED...

P

 

[Peter Majtan]

Steve does have a point here. Paying that much money for a sensor that we haven't seen one frame from doesn't make any sense to me at all. Especially when I can buy an Epic dragon in a few months for cheaper that my epic price + upgrade.

Shane - and that is the point. Nobody is forcing you to do so. It is your personal and business decision to make whether you take the (IMHO well calculated) risk and update now, understanding the true value of such a step. Or play it safe, wait for the Dragon to "prove itself to you" and then decide whether to buy a new one (for the SAME EXACT DEAL as everyone else), or upgrade your old...

P

 

[Shane Kelly]

Shane - and that is the point. Nobody is forcing you to do so. It is your personal and business decision to make whether you take the (IMHO well calculated) risk and update now, understanding the true value of such a step. Or play it safe, wait for the Dragon to "prove itself to you" and then decide whether to buy a new one (for the SAME EXACT DEAL as everyone else), or upgrade your old...

P

Agreed, and I am going to wait. The fact that there is no footage out there is very strange to me. For once, with red, I am "playing it safe".

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Agreed, and I am going to wait. The fact that there is no footage out there is very strange to me. For once, with red, I am "playing it safe".

I'm sure RED is really frustrated they don't have footage to show too. Jarred did post saying there just wasn't enough time to get footage together in time for NAB. They've also said the color science is still being worked on. I personally have no doubt the sensor will live up to the hype, but I also completely understand people that want to wait until they see some footage. Makes sense to me. There will be footage soon I predict.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Agreed, and I am going to wait. The fact that there is no footage out there is very strange to me. For once, with red, I am "playing it safe".

Not strange at all. Both Jarred and Jim have publicly stated why. The HW is ready (with the obvious proof being the public upgrade in the RED booth at NAB that clearly shows the Dragon Epics running in and displaying imagery on their screen while they do so...) - but the color science is still being finished up. Based on their previous experiences they simply do not want to show "work in progress" and are holding off to show any footage until they "get it right". And I do not blame them. And nor do I blame you...

Ad to it the words of Graeme (again - to whom I trust 100%) I know the imagery would be improvement on MX sensor. If all the the Dragon did was to add the 3 stops of DR and the 1K of resolution - while preserving the exact same IQ as MX - that would be more then satisfactory for me. So - IMHO - the question is not whether the IQ improves, but rather "by how much"...

P

 

[steve duncan]

Your math doesn't lie - it just sucks... You can buy the same new camera for 24K just as any of the "newcomers" and get the SAME EXACT DEAL, including the long warranty. Not to mention you get to keep your existing camera...

The 19K does not take you "there". It takes you somewhere else - and nobody is forcing you to go there...

Also - they don't sell your used camera on their website for 8K. They sell a brand new Scarlet for 7950 with proper warranty an no need for transfer / evaluation fee. So again apples and oranges...



I feel sorry for anyone that ever hired you for your analytic skills. Your math sucks - and with math being the basis for any analytic work - its no surprise to see your "results"...

We don't mind hearing personal opinions voiced in a proper and polite manner. I have myself voiced several concerns here in such a way...
But your arrogant outburst of rage fueled by blunt refusal to see, combined with baseless name-calling of RED and their business practices - is making you into one picture perfect example of a troll. Expect no sympathy nor respect from anyone here, much less from RED...

P

well i always know i won an argument when the other person is forced to get personal to make their case... no one said they sell used Scarlets on their site for 8K-- but it gives you an idea of the value of the item they are taking from you when they do the upgrade. you're assuming people have 24k to buy a new camera. I think it's a great price mind you. But I didn't buy the camera to have to buy a new one in order for an upgrade to make sense. For me to have to spend 19K to get to the upgraded place I want to be, and losing my Scarlet at the same time, and only getting a 90 day warranty I think is preposterous. At that price point, you may as well just buck up the 24k and have both cameras.

Which is perfect for RED as selling new cameras means more accessories where all the money is being made. Of course RED can charge whatever they want for an upgrade... they can say it's 30K to upgrade to a 24K camera if they want. My point is, I think they're not giving us a reasonable upgrade route. They're new pricing is basically saying we just want everyone to buy new cameras. No way an Epic is worth two Scarlets with $1,500 left over for some accessories. And at 9.5K to upgrade an Epic, you're better off buying another Scarlet and having a camera B.

For Scarlet owners, you're better off waiting for the Epic Dragon to come down in price, and buy it new in a couple of years at 20K and have two cameras...

If you're going to sell your product on the idea that it's an upgradeable camera-- at least make it economically feasible to upgrade.

Saying a company is arrogant for pre-selling a new sensor for almost $10,000 without being able to show a single video of the sensor in action is not name calling. It's just my opinion and not an unreasonable statement.

and nobody should pre-order a sensor from a company that can't show it even works. An item shouldn't even be priced until it's seen in action.. I'm willing to wait a year, to see if RED will live up to it's commitment to offer a fair upgrade price. I don't care what it is, but RED should offer a reasonable upgrade price. And when they do, I'll start buying RED again. Til then, i'm pretty happy shooting in 4K.

 

[Paul S.]

I don't really want to get involved here, and I think some of the discussion stems from expecting a bit too much. But one thing that holds some water may be the Scarlet -> Epic upgrade price.

I suspect this figure comes as much from symmetry and simplicity... and obviously I don't know what really goes into this process, but my guess is that they will be pulling out some parts of the Scarlet and putting in some of the spare parts they just pulled out of an Epic that's been upgraded. So whereas the Dragon upgrade is really a big deal, involving brand new cutting edge parts, and is in my eyes clearly worth the $9,500 - the step up from 4K to 5K and higher frame rates doesn't strike me as being in the same league when viewed side by side.

Which is not to say I won't take that route, I may well do, I just think it's the less good deal of two fair deals.

 

[Carlos Reyes]

well i always know i won an argument when the other person is forced to get personal to make their case... no one said they sell used Scarlets on their site for 8K-- but it gives you an idea of the value of the item they are taking from you when they do the upgrade. you're assuming people have 24k to buy a new camera. I think it's a great price mind you. But I didn't buy the camera to have to buy a new one in order for an upgrade to make sense. For me to have to spend 19K to get to the upgraded place I want to be, and losing my Scarlet at the same time, and only getting a 90 day warranty I think is preposterous. At that price point, you may as well just buck up the 24k and have both cameras.

Which is perfect for RED as selling new cameras means more accessories where all the money is being made. Of course RED can charge whatever they want for an upgrade... they can say it's 30K to upgrade to a 24K camera if they want. My point is, I think they're not giving us a reasonable upgrade route. They're new pricing is basically saying we just want everyone to buy new cameras. No way an Epic is worth two Scarlets with $1,500 left over for some accessories. And at 9.5K to upgrade an Epic, you're better off buying another Scarlet and having a camera B.

For Scarlet owners, you're better off waiting for the Epic Dragon to come down in price, and buy it new in a couple of years at 20K and have two cameras...

If you're going to sell your product on the idea that it's an upgradeable camera-- at least make it economically feasible to upgrade.

Saying a company is arrogant for pre-selling a new sensor for almost $10,000 without being able to show a single video of the sensor in action is not name calling. It's just my opinion and not an unreasonable statement.

and nobody should pre-order a sensor from a company that can't show it even works. An item shouldn't even be priced until it's seen in action.. I'm willing to wait a year, to see if RED will live up to it's commitment to offer a fair upgrade price. I don't care what it is, but RED should offer a reasonable upgrade price. And when they do, I'll start buying RED again. Til then, i'm pretty happy shooting in 4K.

You keep avoiding the fact that for 9950 you get 5K 60 FPS 2000 ISO clean 16.5+ stops of DR and improved color science. You dont need to pay 19K and you get all the benefits except 6K.