Scarlet owners and their reactions this week

[Paramon Ivanovich]

Your lucky, I've gone through 3 cameras and I'm on my 5th RMA in 13 months.

that's the spirit!
sorry Ryan, i really feel your pain, i would probably give up after the third one.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

Love the choices, scarlet dragon is very tempting though considering I'm very happy with what I have now my main issue is how long we have until we have to make up our minds. Wouldn't mind waiting for a while earning some cash to potentially go epic-x ->epic dragon route, perhaps on the way pick up a ef motion mount and a replacement fan as soon as it's available and I have a whole new camera already.

Scarlet has the features and the amazing modularity behind it, new fan, constant firmware improvements, in camera Looks, histogram goal posts traffic lights, user programmable buttons, multiple monitoring options, ef nikon lens control, time lapse, long exposures, ramping, slow motion(albiet not the best but it's there) oh and my favorite part redcode and it's ability to allow us to select the compression rate on a shot by shot basis, and plenty more.... hey you want a sensor in a box great! I want a camera with all the features I can possibly get, though, I can afford it, if I couldn't I would be on the BMC boat as well.

Camera tests especially between raw cameras have far more to do with the testers own talents and working knowledge of each cam and their own bias as well as being extremely subjective in some cases. Best way is for people to test for themselves because honestly I have a tough time trusting anyone who has been a champion of one model and expect them to take the time to properly learn a camera(not done in just one rental period) when they already have what they feel is the perfect camera for them, not saying it's a bad thing just doesn't make sense unless you are camera agnostic.... of which most people who proclaim they are most likely are not.

Two different systems two different mindsets. nice seeing the BMCuser board join us here though!

anyhoo amazing options nice to see everyone at just about any level of production should be happy with this years NAB, heck if it wasn't for the new fan motion mount and the scarlet dragon announcement I might have grabbed a pocket BM or perhaps the production but until I hear they have an OLPF or sorted it another way I'm out perhaps I'll wait for version 2 pocket cam with 4k, or 3k and a 4/3 sensor. Thanks to all the hard workers who are on the back lines pumping out this stuff amazing work can't even fathom what's coming out next, at least I hope I can't.

 

[steve duncan]

Love the choices, scarlet dragon is very tempting though considering I'm very happy with what I have now my main issue is how long we have until we have to make up our minds. Wouldn't mind waiting for a while earning some cash to potentially go epic-x ->epic dragon route, perhaps on the way pick up a ef motion mount and a replacement fan as soon as it's available and I have a whole new camera already.

-EPIC-M owners can pre-order the upgrade for $9500

-EPIC-X non-early adopters can pre-order upgrade for $9500.-M cameras tomorrow in our booth.

Has anyone looked passed the announcements of the upgrade to really see these ridiculous prices for what they are? On behalf of RED users that know basic math- congratulations RED on completely alienating your loyal fan base; offering a far worse deal to your current base owners then you’re now offering the general public of people that have been doubting the company for years. And let’s get a few misnomers out of the way, as they’re pretty annoying and get consistently regurgitated on this forum. People pointing out that RED is upgradeable unlike most of their competitors as some mystical great deed, so we should all be happy, is beyond silly. I think its great, except that’s the camera's benefit that’s been sold to us day one. Part of the price that we factored into the equation when we first purchased the camera. But with prices like 10k for a sensor upgrade— the upgrade costs more than double that what 4K camera companies like Black Magic are selling an entire camera package for. The upgradeable coolness of your RED camera loses it's shine with price upgrades hitting double what new cameras are now coming out at. Again, this was all factored into the price, and a decision we took (your loyal customers) in buying into a new company with no track record of making cameras. So please don’t say, well it’s something the other companies don’t offer. The only reason I bought the camera was because we were told the camera would be upgradeable in the future. who knew the true upgrade cost would be double the amount of the Scarlet itself? It's absurd.


Talk about greed gone wild. $9,500 to upgrade a sensor? On a Scarlet camera who’s entire body, including a cutting edge sensor a few yrs ago was the same price? Really? If that’s not insulting enough, any one of the hundreds of people that paid $19,000 for the RED Epic in the past 5 months, just lost 5k of value with their camera in one day (about 30% value wiped out). Try listing your Epic now, you’d get laughed at for a number anywhere above 11K. Yesterday it was worth 16k. With 24k buying you a brand new Epic Dragon- the real winners here are the people that never owned a RED camera before. And please don’t say 'but the guys who bought the RED Epic 5 months ago got 5 months of use before losing all that value'. That’s a ridiculous argument. You could’ve owned another camera in the same time period, using it just the same, and not lost your shirt because a greedy camera maker put getting new business in front of taking care of their existing client base that made it all possible.

Scarlet owners got screwed as well. It’s not by accident the company hasn’t released the new scarlet dragon price. That’s because it’s going to be significantly cheaper than if you bought a scarlet and paid for the upgrade (20K). Worse than that, if you want the real Dragon sensor, the one that was originally promised both Scarlett and Epic owners- a Scarlet owner needs to shell out 19k on top of the 10.5k they recently paid. 19K!!. Of course you'd be an idiot to not just buy a brand new epic dragon for 24k and have two cameras. Or wait a year, when black magic gets their production in line, and RED is forced to drop their prices to stay competitive. 19K is over a 300% increase over last year’s estimate of 6k for a Scarlet Dragon upgrade. That’s why I bought into the camera. Do the math- that means your great reward for being a loyal Scarlet owner is a path to Epic Dragon which is 5K or 6k more than what a guy off the street would pay to buy into the same system. They also get a year warrant on a new camera, as opposed to 90 days on the sensor alone.


I want to congratulate everyone that never believed in RED, and scoffed at the idea that a no name American company could produce a great camera—and never shelled out a dime for a RED product. Your wait and your doubts have paid off. Go buy a RED Epic Dragon for 24k and you got yourself a better deal than any current owners. For current RED camera owners… well you got screwed.

It’s smart business for RED. They either charge more for the new RED Dragon cameras, and get less buyers, or offer upgrades for cheaper and get less revenues. Guess what? RED knows you’re not going to let all the peripherals you purchased around your RED go to waste. And for sure you’re not going to watch your friends buy into RED and laugh at you for having an outdated subpar camera that’s quickly losing all its value. No way. RED did their market research. They know just out of pride, most RED camera owners will put on a good face, and dig into their wallets and hope nobody rubs it in their face that they got hosed. Swallow your pride boys, I know I did. I just got laughed at from a bunch of my sony friends that always told me I should’ve waited, like they did, before buying into RED.

I got decent use of the Scarlet- but having took all the risk of buying into a relatively new camera company- our reward should’ve been a fair, modest price for a sensor upgrade. And 25% cheaper then what a new RED camera buyer would get for the same camera- not 35% more. And sadly, it didn’t have to be much less then what was offered to be fair. The Scarlet upgrade price to the limited Dragon should’ve been 6.5k, with an upgrade to the new epic dragon for 13k (not 9.5k / 19k).

And the epic dragon upgrade should’ve been 6k, period. RED had it right 6 months ago, but they let greed for new business come at the expense of the customers that made it possible for them.

RED's commitment to allow Scarlet owners the ability to turn in their paid value for the Scarlet into an Epic Dragon, is also a sham. That means that RED Scarlet owners that paid 10,5k for the brain, should be able to upgrade to the RED Epic Dragon for 24k - 10.5K = 13.5k. Instead it's 19k to do a true upgrade.

I may or may not upgrade the Scarlet. Sucks, it's now lost all it's resale value unless i pay double what i originally paid for the camera. Dell sells the same laptop two year later, with a better processor at the same price. It's called progression. For the price of the upgrade, RED should be selling a brand new camera with the new sensor. You should be getting a whole new camera for 10.5K. And the old camera should be upgradeable for a few thousand dollars- not 19K. It's beyond absurd. You pay 19k to upgrade a 10k camera and you still only have one camera.

I hope RED users, start coming to their senses over the next month and cancel upgrading their REDs. Wait a year, there's other camera companies that aren't looking to gouge you, just because they have the best sensor. And with nobody upgrading, guess where RED will be forced to bring their prices?

Myself, I'm looking for a new camera company to get behind. RED has totally lost me here with their greed. The company should've been looking to upgrade their sensors every 3 years, at a nominal price- they would've had us for life. Instead it just looks like a desperate quick money grab, knowing that by 2015- most cameras will be shooting 100 fps at 5k.

The best move.. don't buy into the RED hype here. This new sensor hasn't even been tested. Within a year, you should be able to buy two black magic cameras for the same price of this upgrade, and shoot in proper 4k, which is way beyond current formats. Now you have 3 cameras. eventually dragon sensor will just be one of many, and you can pick one up in 2015 for 3 or 4k.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I think the pricing is fine. I will move up to Epic X or Scarlet Dragon without a second thought... Probably go for Epic

 

[Daniel Stilling]

I don't understand the Scarlet doomsayers. I have 3, they work all the time, making a good return. I'll probably turn 2 of them into a Scarlet Dragon, with money left over.
If Scarlet owners are smart, they will market their cameras as RED Dragon cameras, the latest model from RED, and be able to compete with Epics as you couldn't before...

 

[Stephen Matthews]

Well a group of us said the scarlet upgrade would cost no more than a new body and we were told we were dreaming and now this announcement we can get scarlet dragon which we were told would not be possible and it's very close to the original purchase price. 5k savings on a new brain and being able to continue your relationship with the company and avoid dealing with selling it yourself to me is a huge bonus others may not see it that way but to each their own.

The big issue will be how long we have to decide as if it's until the end of 2014(heck even 2013) say that is an amazing deal spend what you would on a new brain and receive a whole new level of camera... I have no issue with that. If you have the money to get into a proper red set up a year or so later another 10k to get you into the new sensor is nothing in comparison really.

I also don't get why all these non scarlet owners are so upset at us not being upset... what's it to you?

no one paid 10.5k(as far as I'm aware) for a scarlet maybe with a side SSD and canon mount but both are removable and when you trade in do not go with the camera.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

"

Uhm, what do you mean exactely? ... would you rely on it for crucial production work?

Because about every single sentence in your last post was wrong:

Especially when you think of people using simple (MLC) SSD's and complaining about write errors."

Most doped frame problems occurred on SSDs, that where not on Blackmagic's list of tested and proofed drives.
I use MLC SSDs since last August, and never had a doped frame. (to be fair, two drives died though, because of a faulty docking station, but that has nothing to do with drives and the camera).

Reliable recording for BMPC only with SLC SSD's.

As I said above - no problems since August with MLS SSDs - I can even record on dirt cheap spinning drives when in DnxHD/ProRes mode.

Combined with way less compression ratio of BMPC's DNG that makes stable 4K raw recording pretty expensive down the line.

The BMPC doesn't do 4k (and no DNG for now).

Would I rely for crucial production work?
Absolutely - actually I do for quite a while.
I shot several commercials for cinema and TV, 3 documentaries and just returned from 3 weeks of shooting in Canada where the BMC was B cam to an Epic.

 

[Ryan Sauve]

Has anyone looked passed the announcements of the upgrade to really see these ridiculous prices for what they are? On behalf of RED users that know basic math- congratulations RED on completely alienating your loyal fan base; offering a far worse deal to your current base owners then you’re now offering the general public of people that have been doubting the company for years. And let’s get a few misnomers out of the way, as they’re pretty annoying and get consistently regurgitated on this forum. People pointing out that RED is upgradeable unlike most of their competitors as some mystical great deed, so we should all be happy, is beyond silly. I think its great, except that’s the camera's benefit that’s been sold to us day one. Part of the price that we factored into the equation when we first purchased the camera. But with prices like 10k for a sensor upgrade— the upgrade costs more than double that what 4K camera companies like Black Magic are selling an entire camera package for. The upgradeable coolness of your RED camera loses it's shine with price upgrades hitting double what new cameras are now coming out at. Again, this was all factored into the price, and a decision we took (your loyal customers) in buying into a new company with no track record of making cameras. So please don’t say, well it’s something the other companies don’t offer. The only reason I bought the camera was because we were told the camera would be upgradeable in the future. who knew the true upgrade cost would be double the amount of the Scarlet itself? It's absurd.


Talk about greed gone wild. $9,500 to upgrade a sensor? On a Scarlet camera who’s entire body, including a cutting edge sensor a few yrs ago was the same price? Really? If that’s not insulting enough, any one of the hundreds of people that paid $19,000 for the RED Epic in the past 5 months, just lost 5k of value with their camera in one day (about 30% value wiped out). Try listing your Epic now, you’d get laughed at for a number anywhere above 11K. Yesterday it was worth 16k. With 24k buying you a brand new Epic Dragon- the real winners here are the people that never owned a RED camera before. And please don’t say 'but the guys who bought the RED Epic 5 months ago got 5 months of use before losing all that value'. That’s a ridiculous argument. You could’ve owned another camera in the same time period, using it just the same, and not lost your shirt because a greedy camera maker put getting new business in front of taking care of their existing client base that made it all possible.

Scarlet owners got screwed as well. It’s not by accident the company hasn’t released the new scarlet dragon price. That’s because it’s going to be significantly cheaper than if you bought a scarlet and paid for the upgrade (20K). Worse than that, if you want the real Dragon sensor, the one that was originally promised both Scarlett and Epic owners- a Scarlet owner needs to shell out 19k on top of the 10.5k they recently paid. 19K!!. Of course you'd be an idiot to not just buy a brand new epic dragon for 24k and have two cameras. Or wait a year, when black magic gets their production in line, and RED is forced to drop their prices to stay competitive. 19K is over a 300% increase over last year’s estimate of 6k for a Scarlet Dragon upgrade. That’s why I bought into the camera. Do the math- that means your great reward for being a loyal Scarlet owner is a path to Epic Dragon which is 5K or 6k more than what a guy off the street would pay to buy into the same system. They also get a year warrant on a new camera, as opposed to 90 days on the sensor alone.


I want to congratulate everyone that never believed in RED, and scoffed at the idea that a no name American company could produce a great camera—and never shelled out a dime for a RED product. Your wait and your doubts have paid off. Go buy a RED Epic Dragon for 24k and you got yourself a better deal than any current owners. For current RED camera owners… well you got screwed.

It’s smart business for RED. They either charge more for the new RED Dragon cameras, and get less buyers, or offer upgrades for cheaper and get less revenues. Guess what? RED knows you’re not going to let all the peripherals you purchased around your RED go to waste. And for sure you’re not going to watch your friends buy into RED and laugh at you for having an outdated subpar camera that’s quickly losing all its value. No way. RED did their market research. They know just out of pride, most RED camera owners will put on a good face, and dig into their wallets and hope nobody rubs it in their face that they got hosed. Swallow your pride boys, I know I did. I just got laughed at from a bunch of my sony friends that always told me I should’ve waited, like they did, before buying into RED.

I got decent use of the Scarlet- but having took all the risk of buying into a relatively new camera company- our reward should’ve been a fair, modest price for a sensor upgrade. And 25% cheaper then what a new RED camera buyer would get for the same camera- not 35% more. And sadly, it didn’t have to be much less then what was offered to be fair. The Scarlet upgrade price to the limited Dragon should’ve been 6.5k, with an upgrade to the new epic dragon for 13k (not 9.5k / 19k).

And the epic dragon upgrade should’ve been 6k, period. RED had it right 6 months ago, but they let greed for new business come at the expense of the customers that made it possible for them.

RED's commitment to allow Scarlet owners the ability to turn in their paid value for the Scarlet into an Epic Dragon, is also a sham. That means that RED Scarlet owners that paid 10,5k for the brain, should be able to upgrade to the RED Epic Dragon for 24k - 10.5K = 13.5k. Instead it's 19k to do a true upgrade.

I may or may not upgrade the Scarlet. Sucks, it's now lost all it's resale value unless i pay double what i originally paid for the camera. Dell sells the same laptop two year later, with a better processor at the same price. It's called progression. For the price of the upgrade, RED should be selling a brand new camera with the new sensor. You should be getting a whole new camera for 10.5K. And the old camera should be upgradeable for a few thousand dollars- not 19K. It's beyond absurd. You pay 19k to upgrade a 10k camera and you still only have one camera.

I hope RED users, start coming to their senses over the next month and cancel upgrading their REDs. Wait a year, there's other camera companies that aren't looking to gouge you, just because they have the best sensor. And with nobody upgrading, guess where RED will be forced to bring their prices?

Myself, I'm looking for a new camera company to get behind. RED has totally lost me here with their greed. The company should've been looking to upgrade their sensors every 3 years, at a nominal price- they would've had us for life. Instead it just looks like a desperate quick money grab, knowing that by 2015- most cameras will be shooting 100 fps at 5k.

The best move.. don't buy into the RED hype here. This new sensor hasn't even been tested. Within a year, you should be able to buy two black magic cameras for the same price of this upgrade, and shoot in proper 4k, which is way beyond current formats. Now you have 3 cameras. eventually dragon sensor will just be one of many, and you can pick one up in 2015 for 3 or 4k.

I pretty much agree with everything here. Don't know why everyone is freaking out at how awesome this is when the upgrade is more than the price of the camera. I do, however, have some negative bias because of all the RMAs that I've gone through. At first it seemed pretty awesome but after stepping back and considering, $9,500 seems ridiculous for an upgrade to me based on my personal circumstances (don't really need 5k 60fps and can manage just fine without the added dynamic range).

 

[Stephen Matthews]

I don't get how people keep equating it to a new sensor which is not true exactly, if it was just ISO 2000 base and three extra stops some would say it's worth it but it's not just that it's also a bump in resolution and frame rates. And if you are happy with the current set up great don't do anything.... or get yourself a new fan, and the motion mount next fall and you should be laughing.

It's only a rip off if it's not worth it to you and you do buy it, I'll admit people are very hasty these days pre-ordering camera's sight unseen, but that is their decision to make.

Now Ryan your issues are a whole other matter and my heart goes out to you and I hope you find the issue in you signal chain or whatever, and can understand entirely your hesitation to increase the value of your camera to twice it's current price. Lets hope this time they find the issue or send you back a rock solid unit that works till the end of days because from the looks of it you deserve it after what you have gone through.

 

[Michel Rabe]

Thanks Frank. If you hadn't had any failures that's great, but it's a not a case of if normal SSDs will produce errors but when. They actually make errors all the time, but internal actions 'correct' them on the fly. Reliable SSDs for servers ect are all SLC and way more expensive for a reason, just like Redmags aren't just off the shelf SSD's.
I would take the, admittedly low, risk of write errors anytime for certain productions but not for those this camera is obviously made for. Just my 2ct.

"

The BMPC doesn't do 4k (and no DNG for now).

It's marketed a 4K compressed raw production camera?!

 

[Ryan Sauve]

I don't get how people keep equating it to a new sensor which is not true exactly, if it was just ISO 2000 base and three extra stops some would say it's worth it but it's not just that it's also a bump in resolution and frame rates. And if you are happy with the current set up great don't do anything.... or get yourself a new fan, and the motion mount next fall and you should be laughing.

It's only a rip off if it's not worth it to you and you do buy it, I'll admit people are very hasty these days pre-ordering camera's sight unseen, but that is their decision to make.

Now Ryan your issues are a whole other matter and my heart goes out to you and I hope you find the issue in you signal chain or whatever, and can understand entirely your hesitation to increase the value of your camera to twice it's current price. Lets hope this time they find the issue or send you back a rock solid unit that works till the end of days because from the looks of it you deserve it after what you have gone through.

Thanks for the moral support Stephen. I feel pretty alone in this as RED hasn't really done much to acknowledge the implications this has had on my career. It's definitely not the "family" atmosphere that I initially bought into. It's been quite the rocky experience with the Scarlet over the first year and quite disastrous to a few of the relationships that I've spent a lot of time developing. But I feel like I'm a very special case and that there are cameras out there that are dependable. I'm hoping they either fix this one (the 3rd) or find me a 4th that finally works and puts all those skeletons to bed so I can focus on growing my career instead of doing damage control. I've thought about selling it but I need a camera that works first before I can sell it since RED won't let me return it. Add to all this that I've got my first kid on the way, doesn't make life any easier. But enough of my b*tching, I do have faith in this company, I just need a little luck coming my way for a change.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

It's marketed a 4K compressed raw production camera?!

That's the 4k production BMC - the BMPC is just 1920x1080.

:beer:

 

[Michel Rabe]

yea, well, I was referring to

B.lack M.agic P.roduction C.amera

not the

B.lack M.agic P.ocket C.inema C.amera


nevermind

 

[Saumene Mehrdady]

BMCC is built like a Fisher Price toy.

Please don't say stuff about stuff you've probably never used

 

[Ambarish Manepalli]

An important thing to keep in mind is how much media will cost. 4k RAW on the Blackmagic works out to many, many more terabytes of data than 4k Raw on the Scarlet (without upgrade)
And 4k prores is also MORE than Red 4k based on the numbers they give on the BMD website. Shooting 4k on the Scarlet I get about 20-25 minutes per 64GB using redcode 6:1.
Here's what you get with 4k Prores on the BMD (not Raw)

• 240Gb
  36 Mins
  
  
• 480Gb
  72 Min
  
  - all credit to my business partner Sam Gordon for seeing that

 

[paul schefz]

not sure what the problem is....i thought the upgrades would be more expensive.....and i did not expect a dragon scarlet at all...
compare any of this to sony or canon....
i love what BM are doing but after waiting for a year for the BMC and finally ending up with a scarlet, i really could not be happier....especially now with the upgrade options....i think the prices are very fair....
about the SSD/redmag discussion...i think red will have to lower their prices for the mags....ssds are getting cheaper by the minute and it is hard to justify the extra charge....custom drives, special sauce....they have to come down....especially since we are all moving to 5 or 6k HFR.....the first thing i will sell is my 64gb red mags...just don't make any sense anymore.....

 

[Jason Honeycutt]

Please don't say stuff about stuff you've probably never used

Exactly. It's a solid camera for sure... a GREAT camera for film students and those starting out. It has rolling shutter issues but you can work around it. I was going to get one after last year's NAB, went to a couple hands-on demos in LA, but ultimately went with the Scarlet instead. I do like them as a company though... very friendly, like RED, they listen to their customers and value their input.

Check out what Philip Bloom did with his;

http://vimeo.com/48904764

Locked down shots but very cinematic look, better than most DSLRs.

 

[Michel Rabe]

ssds are getting cheaper by the minute and it is hard to justify the extra charge....custom drives, special sauce....they have to come down....

Again, there are mainly 2 sorts of SSDs, the ones you are talking about are different to 'reliable' SSDs for industry, servers ect. The latter 'SLC' SSDs are pricewise in the ballpark of Redmags, they have a much longer lifespan (format cycles ect) and are much less prone to write errors.
It's not like prices of regular SSDs can be compared to Redmag SSDs.

 

[Eric Santiago]

I think the pricing is fine. I will move up to Epic X or Scarlet Dragon without a second thought... Probably go for Epic

Im leaning towards the EPIC as well.Just found out that my ARMOUR will carry over to any of the options.That was my only concern.Folks no matter which direction you go, these are great time for all end-users

 

[Michael Dalton]

I can't believe all the negativity. Forget upgrading to Dragon, the deal to go to Epic MX is unbelievable!!! Awesome offer!! The jump in sensor can't compare to the options of an epic.

Does this include the BT scarlets? No mention of this, and should be no reason why they would not.