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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet owners and their reactions this week

Michael Dalton said:
Does this include the BT scarlets? No mention of this, and should be no reason why they would not.
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Yes includes all Scarlet purchases from RED. Got that from the showroom floor :)
 
i'm so amped, but i don't know which upgrade to get or why? its so crazy! i love the fact they aren't setting stages, I'm worried about being liquid fast enough. Been brainstorming lucrative ways to make a quick 10k.... sounds like a pilot!
 
Stephen Matthews said:
I don't get how people keep equating it to a new sensor which is not true exactly, if it was just ISO 2000 base and three extra stops some would say it's worth it but it's not just that it's also a bump in resolution and frame rates. And if you are happy with the current set up great don't do anything.... or get yourself a new fan, and the motion mount next fall and you should be laughing.

It's only a rip off if it's not worth it to you and you do buy it, I'll admit people are very hasty these days pre-ordering camera's sight unseen, but that is their decision to make.
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I agree with most of what you're saying.... my main issue isn't the price of the new sensor, it's the price by which RED is going out to new users compared to what is being charged their loyal base for the upgrade. RED should've made the upgrade for 5 or 6K, and showed the entire world that if you buy into RED, you get rewarded. By coming out with this idiotic pricing scheme-- RED caused all their cameras to lose massive amounts of value instead of gaining value. By making the RED Scarlet upgrade process more expensive then the new dragon epic: 8k to 10k (for Scarlett body depending on purchase date) + 9.5K (epic upgrade) +9.5K for = 27K to 29K, I can't help but be insulted. Adding more insult to injury, with the upgrade, RED steals your original Scarlet, which they'll happily refurb and sell for 5K. For epic owners they'll keep that awesome sensor and repackage it, refurb and resell as well.. So not only are they banking a 30% increase to what new buyers are paying (24k new vs 28k avg upgrade price) for the same camera-- they're also putting in the bank your entire scarlet or epic sensor and making more money on the deal.

And for the 27k to 29K you get a 90 day warranty. New buyers paying the 24K can lock in a two yr warranty on the Epic Dragon paying with their amex. The upgrade for me voids my amex extension and i'm stuck at a 90 day warranty.

As some members can attest- the RED isn't a flawless machine, and a relative new comer in the digital camera business. In 6 mnths who's to say you won't get hit with a 2K repair bill because the machine overheated. Who's to say they'll be in business come 2016. Don't be so naive as to assume this company will be around forever. and plunking down 9.5K for a sensor you haven't even seen in action yet is absurd.

My main gripe is that the path to EPIC Dragon for Scarlet users should've been 20% less then what it is for new first time buyers. For current Epic owners, the upgrade should've been 20% less then the current buy in price. A new Epic cost 18K-- the upgrade price should've been 4K or 5K. Something less then the 18K plus 9.5K = 27.5K you're forced to pay.

Now you may say, well you have the option to not buy so it doesn't affect you, but that is not true at all. Because they undercut their current camera costs for new buyers by 20% to 30%, they've killed the resale value of your current cameras. I wasn't looking to resell my camera, but it's pretty sucky that if I had to, the camera is now worth 30% less than it was a week ago because of RED's greedy move to try to get new customers at the expense of their current client base.

This is a dilemma all companies have mind you... do we antagonize and alienate our current customers to get new ones by undercutting them or do we reward our long standing customers. I'm just shocked how badly the current users got cut down... I think a deal at parity would be pretty insulting i.e. 18K epic + 6K sensor upgrade = 24k or 9k scarlet brain + 7.5K (epic upgrade) + 7.5K dragon upgrade= 24K would be fair. But paying more than new customers? Really? I suppose to be excited about this deal? Sadly, if RED stuck with the 6K upgrade number, and put the Scarlet to Epic upgrade at 6K they would've been right on. Their original number was right, but they let the results of the sensor test get them greedy. And we would've went out and probably spent 15K on accessories to celebrate.

But giving new Epic buyers a 20% reduced price compared to equivalent Scarlet or Epic upgrade paths to Epic Dragon, plus the new warranty, plus taking away our Scarlet or Epic sensor to resell it's beyond insulting... I guess RED is banking on their community of camera owners to be so in love with RED that they're blinded to the numbers or just plain dumb. The new pricing is so embarrassingly insulted, I've had Sony owners call me to say their sorry.

SD
 
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No offense Steve but your whole view on this reeks of self entitlement. How can you expect to pay 4K to upgrade to a 24K camera? I dont understand why you are adding the price of the camera that you have in your hands right now that is fully functional and delivers on all the specs you bought it for. You've had the camera and its been at your disposal. Someone who buys a dragon new has not had the ability to use the camera and reap its benefits.
 
I am not sure why people aren't happier. I mean it beats buying a camera, needing to sell it at bottom price, then buying a new full retail price camera... This is basically the best deal around my dudes. My less then 3 year old prosumer sony ain't worth squat. I'd sell it to put it towards a scarlet upgrade but at these prices why bother. We are lucky to have a upgrade path at all, so what if you lose a little on the way? You also have a system that works on that same path my friend. Who cares if some bought BT or used (I got it used). We should be happy our cameras aren't like my sony. Its officially my new crash cam its so worthless (but 16 by 9 unlike the 4 by 3s i gave away). I am plotting ways to destroy it, but the accidental policy lasts another 1 1/2 years so I can't get rid of the thing even if I try. I'm gonna just destroy it POV style over and over, really push to see how many times they will let me trade it in... Film the wide over cranked on red and the POV on the melting sony...
 
Carlos Reyes said:
No offense Steve but your whole view on this reeks of self entitlement. How can you expect to pay 4K to upgrade to a 24K camera? I dont understand why you are adding the price of the camera that you have in your hands right now that is fully functional and delivers on all the specs you bought it for. You've had the camera and its been at your disposal. Someone who buys a dragon new has not had the ability to use the camera and reap its benefits.
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I'll simplify for you.

Scenario 1, the Scarlet Owner

You heard RED was this cool camera company that really takes care of their own- an upgradeable camera that will never get out dated. Even though RED is a new company, with not a long history, you love the concept and the idea of the company as much as you like the product. Even though the industry is pumping out new cameras seemingly cheaper and cheaper, you decide to buy into the RED concept. A camera that will always be upgradeable, so all you need is to buy into the body, and go from there. You plunk down 9K in november 2012 for your new camera body, and get a year warranty that AMEX doubles for you. Everything is great. 4 months later, Scarlet announces a program to upgrade the camera to Epic Dragon. The prices are 19K for the upgrade on top of the 9K I already paid, meaning I've paid a total of 28K to get into a new Epic Dragon camera. Unfortunately the new Epic Dragon only comes with a 3 month warranty, and RED takes back my almost new Scarlet in return for the upgrade. As I'm walking to the RED store to buy the camera, I run into an old friend from film school I never really cared for, and I tell him about the new upgrade I'm ready to do. Surprisingly he always hated RED and never bought into the hype-- but now he's heading to the store to buy a new RED Epic Dragon camera. After telling him my upgrade costs, he starts laughing at me "Ha ha-- you're an idiot--- you're paying 28K for what is only costing me 24K. And I get a fresh one year warranty that my Amex card will double to two years... Wow RED really screwed you here... surprising you always loved RED, bought in on them, and got kicked in the teeth paying 25% more than me and not even getting a real warranty. And I never even liked RED. Sorry Steve, you got shafted pretty good. I'm going to buy a pretty nice lense for the 4K savings. And I guess you have to really be careful you're RED Epic holds up after 90 days. First time sensor in a new camera... lots of sleepless nights ahead for you. See you later sucker." So I leave the store and think wow-- I really hate RED. Why would they reward this new RED buyer jerk a 20% better deal then what they're offering me, an actual owner that has already spent 20K at the RED Store. Wow, I certainly hope other users did the math and see the same thing and write the company a letter.

Scenario Two: The Epic Owner

Same story as above except in January 2013, we buy the RED Epic for $18,000. Three months later you head to the store to find out that the Dragon upgrade is 9.5K putting your total cost at around 27.5K. After seeing the same camera being sold to a new buyer for 24K, I got pretty pissed at the 3.5K mark up. I understand that I got a few months use of the camera, but still-- shouldn't I be rewarded for being an owner of the camera-- or at least pay the same? It's not a lot of money but it's the principle. The sensor seemed fair at the original price of 6K, but 9.5K is really expensive. And RED isn't letting me keep the old sensor or giving me compensation. They're keeping a rock solid sensor that they will reuse in another camera ON TOP of the 9.5k charge for the new dragon sensor. Meaning it's actually closer to 11k or 12k benefit to RED for me to upgrade. If they're getting an 11k benefit for the upgrade, on top of the 18k I recently paid-- thats a 25% mark up to the price they're charging new customers. Now I'm not a hater or anything, but I work hard for my money, and paying that much more just a few months later seems really unfair. I'm pretty upset. If they stuck with the 6K upgrade price, I would've been a fan boy for life. And I was going to spend another 10K at the RED store this week, but now I feel disillusioned with RED.

Maybe i'll hold off on the upgrade and see what other camera companies are doing. I saw that Black Magic at NAB is offering a 4K camera to be available at the end of this year. For the same price of the RED upgrade, I could keep my 5K Epic and buy two Black Magic 4K Cameras next year. They seemed committed to keeping prices really low-- something that I though RED was committed to doing. Now I'm not so sure. What a shame. I was ready to spend all this money at RED and be a RED fan for life, but it seems they got greedy. Not over a lot of money mind you, but enough to make me really rethink this company. A company I've been boasting about for so long. Maybe they'll come to their senses. It's just the principle- I hate being like this, but I get jaded pretty quickly.

This is behavior I'd expect from Apple, not a cutting edge young company that seemed to be the antithesis of the greedy big company. Now I'm thinking Black Magic could be that company I was hoping RED to be. They're having issues like any new company, but I like what they're trying to do. I don't really want to switch camera makers, but now i'm thinking to wait and test the waters. If not Black Magic, maybe a new company. And I can already shoot in 5k with my epic, do I really need to spend all this money for an upgrade that's untested? And only a 90 day warranty on a new sensor? What happens if this has problems on a big production shoot? Is it worth the risk to buy into a technology that already works great- that none of my clients are asking for? For 6K i would've upgraded. For 9.5K-- sorry guys, i'll get back to you in a year when you can prove the sensor works, and black magic and sony haven't offered something much better for less
 
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Brian Merlen said:
I am not sure why people aren't happier. I mean it beats buying a camera, needing to sell it at bottom price, then buying a new full retail price camera... This is basically the best deal around my dudes. My less then 3 year old prosumer sony ain't worth squat. I'd sell it to put it towards a scarlet upgrade but at these prices why bother. We are lucky to have a upgrade path at all.
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we're not lucky to have an "upgrade path at all", it was part of their original concept buying into RED. That would be like buying a chevy volt, and than saying years later that "we're lucky they have a power battery option at all"... it's not lucky-- that's the concept of the car, factored into the price. If Chevy years later gave owners the option to upgrade the batteries, and the upgrade cost as much as the original car, and new buyers got a 20% discount to the upgrade price, people would be up in arms. Nobody would say, "well we're lucky they had a battery option at all, look at gas prices".

An owner would say, "wow that really sucks, why would a new chevy volt option get a 20% discount for a new car with a new warranty with cool batteries, to my battery upgrade price?" They may still upgrade and stay with Chevy, but I bet they'd be pretty jaded and start looking at other car makers.
 
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Daniel Pearson said:
I find this kind of embarrassing, that somebody would feel the need to call somebody else to "apologies" and to imply that their brand has a bigger penis than your brand.
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Well, Sony does have an amazing upgrade program for their cameras. Oh, wait...
 
If you bought a scarlet for 9K on november 2012 you have had 6 months to use it and make some money, not to mention the upgrade is months away. So the dude you hate pays 24K and is waiting months before he gets a camera while you have all this time to use and benefit from the camera. By your logic you're paying an extra 4K to have a working camera in your hands while the dude you hate is waiting for his dragon which could be 6 months to a year (if not more) away. If red told me pay 29K get a camera now and when the dragon comes out we'll switch them for you, or wait a year and get the dragon for 24K then, I'd pick the first option get my business ahead, master the workflow, advance my craft and make amazing images while the dude who's paying 24K is at home waiting. Idk, everyone's entitled to their opinions but I dont think it's as bad as you make it out to be.
 
steve duncan said:
I'll simplify for you.

Scenario 1, the Scarlet Owner

You heard RED was this cool camera company that really takes care of their own- an upgradeable camera that will never get out dated. Even though RED is a new company, with not a long history, you love the concept and the idea of the company as much as you like the product. Even though the industry is pumping out new cameras seemingly cheaper and cheaper, you decide to buy into the RED concept. A camera that will always be upgradeable, so all you need is to buy into the body, and go from there. You plunk down 9K in november 2012 for your new camera body, and get a year warranty that AMEX doubles for you. Everything is great. 4 months later, Scarlet announces a program to upgrade the camera to Epic Dragon. The prices are 19K for the upgrade on top of the 9K I already paid, meaning I've paid a total of 28K to get into a new Epic Dragon camera. Unfortunately the new Epic Dragon only comes with a 3 month warranty, and RED takes back my almost new Scarlet in return for the upgrade. As I'm walking to the RED store to buy the camera, I run into an old friend from film school I never really cared for, and I tell him about the new upgrade I'm ready to do. Surprisingly he always hated RED and never bought into the hype-- but now he's heading to the store to buy a new RED Epic Dragon camera. After telling him my upgrade costs, he starts laughing at me "Ha ha-- you're an idiot--- you're paying 28K for what is only costing me 24K. And I get a fresh one year warranty that my Amex card will double to two years... Wow RED really screwed you here... surprising you always loved RED, bought in on them, and got kicked in the teeth paying 25% more than me and not even getting a real warranty. And I never even liked RED. Sorry Steve, you got shafted pretty good. I'm going to buy a pretty nice lense for the 4K savings. And I guess you have to really be careful you're RED Epic holds up after 90 days. First time sensor in a new camera... lots of sleepless nights ahead for you. See you later sucker." So I leave the store and think wow-- I really hate RED. Why would they reward this new RED buyer jerk a 20% better deal then what they're offering me, an actual owner that has already spent 20K at the RED Store. Wow, I certainly hope other users did the math and see the same thing and write the company a letter.
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What did this hypothetical guy you hate from film school do for a camera the, at least, 9-12 months you had a Scarlet and he didn't?

How much is having your Scarlet for 9-12 months worth to you?

You're not investing in stock when you buy a camera. You're investing in yourself.
 
@ Steve

Your point seems to be that at 6K dragon upgrade is fine but at 9.5K it becomes a nightmare/rip off.

A question what business model are you working with that can't cover another 3.5K amortised over 1 ,2 or 3 years ?.

OR another way of looking at it............ 9.5K doesn't = a new sensor.....................9.5K = a new camera that is ahead of all current & proposed new cameras on the market.

P.S. Also IMO as soon as I hear the "SSD price" argument I believe the RED system is the wrong system for that owner.Obviously they've never shot 400ft of 35mm neg stock + processing + time !

P.S.S @ Frank a couple a pages back you posted a pic of 2 sensor charts side by side who's sensor's are they?
 
Whoa whoa whoa.... did you buy a Scarlet and did nothing with it, and was hoping to upgrade, not to a Scarlet Dragon, but to an EPIC Dragon for what, $12k more would be reasonable to you? Did you buy your Scarlet thinking it would hold its whole value? Have you ever bought a piece of technology, or a car where that is the case? Though some numbers may add up, the mentality really doesn't. Let me try to explain.

Let's say I bought a Honda for $9k. Got to use it for a few months, with the promise that I would be able to upgrade it to a better car later on. That car brought me home. Saved me money on public transportation. Got me to places I wouldn't have been able to get if I were only to rely on rentals, public transportation, or a good friend letting me borrow their car. In fact it even got me a job that paid a $10k profit (which I know is not that much, but better than nothing right?) that I couldn't have gotten if I didn't have that Honda.

Now they are giving me an option to upgrade to a Mercedes, which I could never be able to afford in one hit. In the end, it's easier to get ahold of $9k than $15k. I'd have to go through all the trouble of selling my Honda, and that is time "wasted" I cannot afford to loose at this time. I might even have to wait a long time till I get that Mercedes and will be car-less for a while. Not only that, they are giving me the option where I could even pay another $9k and get an even better car!

So the day my friend laughs at me because he waited and "paid less" I'll also know that because He didn't get to have a car, he wasted a lot of opportunities he could've had such as a 10k profit gig. He didn't learn as much as I did during that time, and didn't have the joy of owning that car, and not have to worry about how will I get to my destination next. Plus he might have to wait much longer in him getting than Mercedes than I will. And I'll be the one laughing inside.

A lot of us here love what we do and don't put numbers on a thing that is alive and breathing and is not meant to be used as a doorstop. The fact that a company is enabling us do something NOW and not tomorrow is incredible. Any other company would just tweak the insides maybe change the exterior a bit and I would have to pay THE WHOLE PRICE, not the update price. Like I said I could sell my old equipment and feel like I was paying the update price, but that is time wasted I cannot afford to loose and in fact is much more valuable to me.
 
@steve I'll add, your original 9K scarlet becomes 5K 60 FPS 2000 ISO clean 16.5+ stops of DR improved color science for a total of 19k!!!!!!! All this while you've had the chance to use your curent scarlet. I can't understand the bitterness that deal is amazing.
 
Mike Garrick said:
@ Steve

Your point seems to be that at 6K dragon upgrade is fine but at 9.5K it becomes a nightmare/rip off.

A question what business model are you working with that can't cover another 3.5K amortised over 1 ,2 or 3 years ?.

OR another way of looking at it............ 9.5K doesn't = a new sensor.....................9.5K = a new camera that is ahead of all current & proposed new cameras on the market.
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depending on when you bought into it, determines how bad you feel ripped. If you bought a Scarlet fairly recently, and you were under the impression that you could buy into a Dragon sensor for 6K-- a price the CEO posted as an approximate price-- I think 19K to get into the Epic is absurdly high. It's not 3.5k.

For Epic owners, I still think it's really high. It's for a technology that hasn't produced a single moving image. IMO this whole move was premature, done at the last minute at NAB after Black Magic start taking their thunder. Forget pricing the sensor-- what company would start presales on an upgrade for a sensor that isn't even working on a single camera. It just looks like amateur hour, and part of the reason real industry professionals are moving from 35 to the Alexa. Arri is dominating that industry now.

RED had a great idea last year-- upgrading their sensors for 6K. Now their up to 60% over that price, without even showing us a video, and now started preselling? A move that has done nothing more than cause current prices on both cameras to crash.

I bought into the Scarlet b/c if was upgradeable. Charging the same price for the original camera to achieve an upgrade is ridiculous- anyway you shake it. The engine in your Corvette is upgradeable-- but it costs as much as you bought the car for last year? I don't care it goes 240 mph, I just wanted a reasonable upgrade for a reasonable price.

Epic owners should even be at a greater loss for words. who cares if you got a year of use out of your epic-- the upgrade shouldn't cost 20% more then the new cost of a Scarlet (which has the same body and sensor as the Epic). It's crazy high. You all say it's a total game changer and validates the price. Really? Except for the fact that nobody has seen a single moving image from the new sensor.

Again it's just looks like amateur hour.... If the company simply rolled out a new upgrade with little fanfare, at a reasonable price, I think respect comes with it. If I was an epic owner, I think long and hard about spending 9.5K for an upgrade that may buy you two very competent Black Magic 4K cameras next year- while keeping your current RED Epic that already shoots in 4k.

You don't think 3.5k matters to Epic owners-- watch. Nobody likes getting nickled and dimed-- and RED is already a pretty big investment with the peripherals you need. I think there's a lot of people that are going to put there foot down here and say no... come back to me in a year, with a more reasonable upgrade price and we'll talk.
 
You guys don't get it. Steve is a camera investor and collector. He keeps his cameras on a shelf in their original packaging and waits for prices to go up. So far, it looks like he's not doing so well and he's got to find someone to blame. I think he should give BM a shot next round. I'm sure that will work out great. Used ones will be selling for $8K or more by this time next year... Guaranteed!

just for the record, no CEO that I know of promised a Scarlet to Dragon upgrade for $6K.
 
It was always stated the scarlet upgrade would be more than the original 6K, that price was for epics. And months ago they said 6K for epic was unrealistic, this isnt coming out of no where.
 
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