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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet Dragon?

Daniel Christensen

Daniel Christensen

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Okay, I'm just a little confused at this point. I've heard multiple times since NAB that the Dragon upgrade would only be for Epic, but you could upgrade your Scarlet to the Mysterium Epic if you wanted. But I read here: http://www.red.com/faqs/dragon/scarlet that you could upgrade your Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon, with "full specs coming soon" That would be a perfect happy medium for me if it's not old information. Does anyone know RED's plans? I'm hoping for a response from one of the big dogs, Jarred or Jim, but any knowledge would be great... This is kind of huge for me. :D
 
I'm not one of the big dogs (not even a part of the dog pound, yet part of the puppy pack), but here's the info you're after:

Phil Holland said:
Greatings everybody. As official information comes in regarding Dragon I'll be posting links to that info and uploading some useful graphics to help visualize Dragon's feature set right here in the first post of this thread.

** Updated 4/15/2013


Dragon Models and Pricing:
- Epic-M Dragon: price = $29,000, availability = After early adopters and current Epic-M owners have their chance to upgrade.
- Epic-X Dragon: price = $24,000, availability = TBA
- Scarlet Dragon: price = $9,500.00, availability = TBA


Epic Upgrade Options:
- Epic-M owners can pre-order the upgrade for $9500
- Early Red adopters can pre-order for $9500 and receive a $1000 store credit when invoiced.
- Epic-X owners can pre-order their upgrade at $9500 4/11/2013.
- New Epic-M Dragon cameras will be sold for $29K, pre-orders now. Ships after Epic-M owners have had their chance to upgrade.
- Epic-X Dragon cameras will be priced at $24K, shipping and release information unknown at this time.


Scarlet Upgrade Options:
- Trade in your Scarlet-X to upgrade to Epic-X with the Mysterium-X sensor for $9500. Upgrade your Epic-X to Full Epic Dragon for an additional $9500.
- Upgrade the Scarlet-X to Scarlet Dragon for $9500. Scarlet Dragon will be a 5K, 60fps camera.
- Pre-orders for upgrades begin Thursday, upgrades start in July.
- Scarlet Dragon price and availability TBD.


Other information:
- Is the Red One eligable to upgrade to Dragon? No. Epic was the upgrade path for the Red One. (source)


Technology Details and Highlights:
- Dragon's full frame resolution is 6144x3160 and it's sensor size is 30.7x15.8mm, which is an aspect ratio of 1.94:1. (source 1, 2)
- What does 6K work out to for still shooters? 19.4 megapixels, print resolution of 20.48x10.53 inches at 300 DPI.
- Dragon's ISO 2000 appears "cleaner" than the Mysterium X at ISO 800. Basically less than half the noise of the MX sensor. (source 1,2)
- Dragon's currently been measured at 18+ stops of captured dynamic range. Noticeably more than modern film stocks. (source 1, 2, 3)
- The Dragon Upgrade itself represents a new sensor, new ASIC boards, and other new technologies. (source)
- Max frames per second at full resolution? 100fps at 6K for Epic Dragon, 60fps at 5K for Scarlet Dragon.
- What about IR and the OLPF? There's a new IR OLPF designed specifically for Dragon. (source 1, 2, 3)
- What about power consumption and heat? The Dragon sensor uses less power and generates less heat than the Mysterium X Sensor. (source)
Click to expand...
 
So basically are we looking at the same deal as the Mysterium X? Where the Scarlet and epic have the same sensor, the electronics are just scaled down so you can't do super slo-mo? Plus we have the upgraded dynamic range and low-light of Dragon? AHH! This is my dream camera.
 
Pretty much.

Epic Dragon = 6K sensor and higher frame rates.
Scarlet Dragon = 5K sensor and slightly lower frame rates, 40% of Epic Dragon to be exact.
 
Yep, Dragon on the Scarlet!

Although, many people are saying that it will probably be EOL of the Scarlet if you go to Dragon directly. But it would still be a great camera regardless for a long time to come!
 
Josef Gatti said:
Bit of a crop too for Scarlet at 5k I believe. So FOV slightly less, something like a 1.3 crop. Might be 1.6. Can live with that for sure
Click to expand...

Since RED makes digital cinema cameras, I think we should drop the "crop" monicker. The cinema standard is 35 vertical* (as suppose the standard for still photography which is 35 horizontal*). So when it comes to framing cine standards the FOV between Scarlet and Epic is identical. We should start mentioning the ratios offered at higher resolutions (such as the 6K on the Epic) to see how much more FOV you get when compared to cinema standards...

Just my two yen

:sifone: Peter

* motion of the 35mm film in relation to the camera...
 
Josef Gatti said:
Bit of a crop too for Scarlet at 5k I believe. So FOV slightly less, something like a 1.3 crop. Might be 1.6. Can live with that for sure
Click to expand...

The "crop" of Scarlet will be essentially what it is now at 4K - ie S35mm.

The "crop" on Epic Dragon at 6K however will be closer to 1.2, I believe.
 
Talking about the FOV has anyone tried framing a shot how you like @ 4 or 5k then move the camera back a foot or so .......& hey presto 6k FOV.
 
Peter Majtan said:
Since RED makes digital cinema cameras, I think we should drop the "crop" monicker. The cinema standard is 35 vertical* (as suppose the standard for still photography which is 35 horizontal*). So when it comes to framing cine standards the FOV between Scarlet and Epic is identical. We should start mentioning the ratios offered at higher resolutions (such as the 6K on the Epic) to see how much more FOV you get when compared to cinema standards...

Just my two yen

:sifone: Peter

* motion of the 35mm film in relation to the camera...
Click to expand...

I think I get what you're saying Peter. Just in relation to Epic Dragon vs. Scarlet Dragon (which is what the thread is talking about), the 5k on Scarlet vs the 6k on Epic literally is a 'crop' in. Hence the use of the word crop. But I get what you're saying about comparisons to 35mm, which I have 0 experience in so I won't even begin to know what I'm talking about.

And yep Mike that'll pretty much do it haha
 
Yes, it's kind if weird how everything is talked about in full-frame 35mm terms when this is not really a widely recognised motion format. But now we are closer than ever so maybe it's ok? As Bob says, "the times, they are a changin'..."
 
Mike Garrick said:
Talking about the FOV has anyone tried framing a shot how you like @ 4 or 5k then move the camera back a foot or so .......& hey presto 6k FOV.
Click to expand...

How about when you are in a small room and can't move back? I was shooting in a 12 x 6 room on Tuesday. Could hav used the extra FOV!
 
James_Mills said:
So are you saying the Dragon is going or have a 5D sized "FF" sensor or whatever?
Click to expand...

Phil Holland said:
Red Dragon: Crop Factors, Dimensions, and Diagonals


Above is a graphic showcasing the image plane and diagonal coverage of Epic Dragon as well as Scarlet Dragon. Notable here is that Red Dragon 5K is very close to S35 3-perf coverage (as seen in Red Dragon and Film Formats graphic above). It has been mentioned at NAB 2013 that Dragon may have the capability to dial in custom resolutions. Additionally on this graphic, for those who have lenses that cover Mysterium-X at 5K Full, you can see that Dragon "5.5K" provides the same sized image plane while providing higher capture resolution.
Click to expand...


Something to add to this mix. Red Dragon is going to introduce a new concept when it comes to resolution, aspect ratio, and the standard "Red Formats", such as Full, WS, HD, 2:1. You will be able to shoot at whatever resolution within your sensor sizes limits. So for instance. Do you prefer 2:40:1 or 2:35:1? Or perhaps you would like to shoot at 5.7K resolution for some reason or another. The standard resolutions and formats will be in there, but Dragon will have a user definable sensor/format size as well.
 
No cut off date has been announced as of now, Epic trade ins are shipping currently though if one wants to go that way...
 
Everybody is all about resolution, but for me, I'm more excited about the higher dynamic range, better lowlight, and new color science. 4K is plenty for me, and at up to 75 frames, that's gonne make for some pretty sweet slow motion...
 
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