Scarlet Dragon and 6K

[Peter Majtan]

According to Phil Holland this was Jarred's response:

I caught Jarred in between probably 15 different meetings, but I did get some important questions answered.

Q: Will Scarlet Dragon have any 6K functionality?
A: Nope. Scarlet Dragon records at 5K at up to 60 frames per second.

Here is a little food for a thought - and my honest opinion...

I have had my Scarlet for little over a year now and I absolutely love it. It has shot ton of amazing imagery - both motion and still. And it has paid for itself and then some...
One of the key features of the Scarlet was its ability to utilize the full 5K sensor, albeit at max of 12 FPS. There are two major benefits that result from this:

1. Scarlet shot same amazing stills as an Epic would. Full 5K, same lens coverage, even HDRx. Pure beauty...

2. For time-lapse photography of speed less then the 12FPS limit (or 6FPS with HDRx) - the Scarlet again utilized the full 5K sensor and therefore matched the Epic's quality and lens coverage...

This meant that the Scarlet was a dream B-cam for the Epic for the kind I work I do quite often. When the new models and upgrades were announced - I have immediately jumped on ordering the new Epic Dragon to become my A-cam and was planing to upgrade my Scarlet to Dragon to compliment the Epic as a B-cam. About 30% of my work requires stills or time-lapse photography for which the Epic is overkill as Scarlet could do that job just fine, while matching the Epic's imagery.
But if the Jarred's answer to Phil is set in stone and there is no possibility for Scarlet to utilize the full 6K of Dragon sensor (of course at severely reduced frame-rates), this will greatly limit Scarlet-D's ability to shoot higher res stills and time-lapse photography. Scarlet would also not be able to match the lens coverage for anything shot at 6K on the Epic...

Just to be clear - I am not complaining - I am simply explaining one of the key strengths of the current Scarlet when combined on a productions with the current Epic-MX.
And as the Scarlet upgrade program orders are due to open in few hours - this will have a major implication on which of the two options people will choose - upgrade the Scarlet to Dragon, or to Epic-MX instead...

If the Scarlet Dragon could use the full 6K sensor even at speeds bellow 10 FPS - it will hugely increase its potential and it value...
Heck - even at 1 FPS it will still allow for both improved stills and time-lapse photography...

So the simple question for Jarred is:

Will the Scarlet Dragon be ever able to utilize the full 6K sensor - understanding that the max FPS will be severely limited?
Or is the decision to cap the capture at 5K set in stone?

Once again - no whining here - just asking for an answer that will have a major implications on which of the two upgrade paths the current Scarlet owners will choose when they come online in few hours...

Thank You for understanding

Peter

 

[Daniel Pearson]

I'm refraining from voting at the moment as we don't have the full specs, but I guess my angle is that I would rather have NO 6K (allowing this to be an Epic bragging right) but to get higher FPS at 4K.

I realise that realistically in the real world, having 9 frames per second of 6K wouldn't make Scarlet a 6K camera. But if this was a sweetener for Epic owners, the ONLY 6K camera in the world, and in exchange we could have high frames per second (I'm thinking 100ish) at 4K, I'd happily lose 6K.

In the old Scarlet "5K at speed" debates some Epic owners commented that most Epics are shot 5K 24fps, and that the high frame rates were great, but not the reason all Epic owners used Epic. If resolution is the key for Epic owners, then I'd rather let them have that and Scarlet get some high fps at 4K.

If that makes sense?

 

[Phil Holland]

I would wait for more information, but I have a theory that part of making the Scarlet Dragon upgrade affordable is actually utilizing a smaller sensor design. Meaning I don't know if there is 6K coverage in there. When I spoke to Jarred he stated it was a 5K camera and could not shoot 6K, so maybe I'm just extrapolating that.

If that is the case, that's one way of actually keeping the cost of the upgrade down by manufacturing a smaller sensor and thus producing a higher yield and perhaps more physical sensors per wafer.

We'll have to wait for official word.

At this point though, I'd focus more on the fact that all three upgrade paths to Dragon or Epic for Scarlet-X owners are designed to deliver a nice and proper 4K image.

 

[Samir Patel]

This would be interesting if they gave at least 12fps (could still be the best timelapse camera ever alongside the Epic Dragon of course) It would make it a huge selling point.

 

[Timothy Carr]

I would like 6k... I mean, 5k 60fps and they wont (not cant, wont) give us 6k??? Come on.

 

[Timothy Carr]

Guess we will see.

 

[Daniel Pearson]

I would like 6k... I mean, 5k 60fps and they wont (not cant, wont) give us 6k??? Come on.

But why should they? You say "not can't, won't", how do you know they can within the costing they've given? Until a week ago we'd been told the Scarlet wouldn't get a Dragon update at all. I'd rather they focused on making it the most amazing 5K camera they can for the price, no compromises, rather than a hobbled 6K at the cost of other features.

 

[Les Dittert]

My fear is that the 4K speeds will also be 60fps.
This is based on some speculative disscussions I had with Red engineers at the show.
The speed is limited by row count, not column count of the image read from the sensor.
Which means that there could be some interesting wide screen modes possible at high frame rates.

 

[Lliam Worthington]

Please lets not make this a what we "won't" get thread. I think Peter was quite clear in that he's seeking official confirmation on behalf of all, because for some such as him, it will be an important factor in making their next business decision. For my own work, the fact I will be able to now pull 5K stills from my standard motion work without changing resolution will be great. But the reason I will be paying for an upgrade is for the DR, low light performance, true 4k, and better frame rates. Awesome. This will outperform an Epic MX in all the most essential ways for me. So I'm voting Scarlet Dragon.

6K @ say 4fps would always be welcome of course. As would a lot of things )

 

[Daniel Pearson]

My fear is that the 4K speeds will also be 60fps.
This is based on some speculative disscussions I had with Red engineers at the show.
The speed is limited by row count, not column count of the image read from the sensor.
Which means that there could be some interesting wide screen modes possible at high frame rates.

Hopefully we'll find out more specific specs in a few hours.

 

[Matthew B]

I'm completely grateful for the opportunity RED has given us Scarlet owners - 5k 60 will be a huge jump, and if 4k can do higher even better.

For 6k - Even if the was 12FPS or lower, it would be great to have for time-lapse and motion still usage. If the chips can handle the data rates it would be great to leave it in.

We use our scarlet at 5k quite a bit with the lower frame rates for motion still extraction and stop motion types of shoots.

 

[Bob Gundu]

All I know for sure, is that scarlet dragon can't do 6k.

 

[Trevor Meeks]

I would like 6k... I mean, 5k 60fps and they wont (not cant, wont) give us 6k??? Come on.

They CAN and will give you 6K. Buy an EPIC with Dragon.

 

[Timothy Carr]

They CAN and will give you 6K. Buy an EPIC with Dragon.

Im talking about with the scarlet.

 

[Trevor Meeks]

Im talking about with the scarlet.

You bought your Scarlet as a 4K camera. You should be thankful that you get the option to make it anything more without buying an entirely new camera.

How do people not understand this?!

 

[Timothy Carr]

You bought your Scarlet as a 4K camera. You should be thankful that you get the option to make it anything more without buying an entirely new camera.

How do people not understand this?!

I did, but im talking about the upgrade. If i pay an extra $10k, and 6k could be possible, it would be nice to get the full potential, and not have a throttled off version. Like what arri do by making you pay to enter a serial key to "unlock" the 120fps.

 

[Trevor Meeks]

I did, but im talking about the upgrade. If i pay an extra $10k, and 6k could be possible, it would be nice to get the full potential, and not have a throttled off version. Like what arri do by making you pay to enter a serial key to "unlock" the 120fps.

That's great and all, but whining about it won't change anything at this point. It is what it is. You want 6K Dragon, you go EPIC. If you can settle for 5K Dragon, upgrade your Scarlet. Then again, no one is holding a gun to your head and making you upgrade.

Pretty fair to me. Your 4K 24fps camera becomes a 5K 60fps camera. Show me another company that would do that for you. Again, no one's holding a gun to your head and saying you have to upgrade. Just leave your Scarlet as is, quit whining and go shoot. That's what I suggest.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Looks like only Lliam got this right...

This is not a thread to discuss our guesses and opinions. I am only seeking an official word from RED.
All we have so far is Phil's discussion with Jarred. While I trust Phil 100% - Jarred could have easily misunderstood the question, or perhaps just made a quick "safe" answer while they work things out.

The issue here is that this info could have a huge implications on which path people will chose when upgrading their Scarlets...

P

 

[Scott Crawley]

This is not a thread to discuss our guesses and opinions. I am only seeking an official word from RED. ...
P

If that was your intent for this discussion you might have done better to hold your poll on a separate thread... Just a thought. ;-)

 

[Michael Jarvis]

There is an easy resolution to all of the debate here. Seems pretty simple to me. Jim should buy each RED user a brand new Epic Dragon as an early Christmas present. Every customer gets a free one. Lets get that going. Wait...no...I am sure there would be issues with that too He got his sooner...mine had a scratch...his had newer firmware...ect.