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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet / Canon / Sony frustration

Am I missing something? Isn't 8 bit a dealbreaker for anyone who is serious about filmmaking?
 
Tom Lowe said:
Am I missing something? Isn't 8 bit a dealbreaker for anyone who is serious about filmmaking?
Click to expand...

Have you seen images from the C300? Looks beautiful to me. I'm not technical at all, I just know my eyes and that 8bit image looks stunning..... Grading might be different, but I hear good things about it.

That Barry Green fella is saying that RED only actually produces equivalent to a 4:2:0 colour space... isn't that a deal breaker? (no idea if it is true.... But my point is that IQ is not just a set of numbers).
 
I just can't see how companies releasing new gear with better or different specs affects your ability to make great pictures with the gear we already have. How is choice bad ? Does our old gear just stop working when a better one comes along? Quality has more to do with understanding the equipment and its abilities than making the 'best' image just by having the latest and greatest.
 
Jay Birch said:
But my point is that IQ is not just a set of numbers).
Click to expand...


Try entering a car race with a minivan sporting a 150hp motor. You are going to get your ass handed to you by a guy in a Ferrari. Specs and numbers do matter.
 
LOL I have nothing but love for Barry Green...but he has been writing books for and teaching on Panasonic cameras for years. I would say bias does come into play.

PS
If Red was producing the equivalent of 4:2:0 color space do you think it would have been used for movies like:____(Listed Below) When 35mm could have just as easily been budgeted?

The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo
The Hobbit
Prometheus
The Social Network
The Amazing Spiderman
On and on and on...
 
Tom Lowe said:
Isn't 8 bit a dealbreaker for anyone who is serious about filmmaking?
Click to expand...

Although 8 bits are very limiting, the answer to that question mostly depends on individual perception of "serious filmmaking", type of workflow, production priorities and abilities of the DoP.

Properly shot and post produced 8 bit 4:2:2 can be usable. Far from optimal but usable.
$15K worth ? Depends on the priorities of purchase decision maker.
 
Im frustrated from 8 bit.
 
Andrew Allsbury said:
LOL I have nothing but love for Barry Green...but he has been writing books for and teaching on Panasonic cameras for years. I would say bias does come into play.

PS
If Red was producing the equivalent of 4:2:0 color space do you think it would have been used for movies like:____(Listed Below) When 35mm could have just as easily been budgeted?

The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo
The Hobbit
Prometheus
The Social Network
The Amazing Spiderman
On and on and on...
Click to expand...

Shot on 16mm Film:
The Hurt Locker
Friday Night Lights
Scrubs
Leaving Las Vegas
Sex in the City
Merlin (BBC)

Is bit count and sensor size really the end all?
 
Tom Lowe said:
Am I missing something? Isn't 8 bit a dealbreaker for anyone who is serious about filmmaking?
Click to expand...

Pretty much. However, not everybody in the market is serious in that way.
 
Not by any stretch a knockout punch. [TABLE="class: grid, width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Feature[/TD]
[TD]RED Scarlet-X[/TD]
[TD]Canon 1D-C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Price (shooting package)[/TD]
[TD]~$16.5k*[/TD]
[TD]~$16.5k*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4k fps[/TD]
[TD]30p[/TD]
[TD]24p[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4k Sensor Size[/TD]
[TD]s35[/TD]
[TD]APS-H[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Low Light Noise[/TD]
[TD]Good[/TD]
[TD]Great[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]RAW[/TD]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[TD]No[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bit Depth[/TD]
[TD]16bps (14?)[/TD]
[TD]8bps[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chroma Sampling[/TD]
[TD]~4:4:4[/TD]
[TD]4:2:2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dynamic Range[/TD]
[TD]~13 stops[/TD]
[TD]~13+??[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rolling Shutter[/TD]
[TD]??[/TD]
[TD]??[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Debayer[/TD]
[TD]Full[/TD]
[TD]Binning[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Footage Processing Time[/TD]
[TD]Eons[/TD]
[TD]None[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Weight[/TD]
[TD]8 lbs +[/TD]
[TD]< 5 lbs[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Volume[/TD]
[TD]Little Noisy[/TD]
[TD]Silent[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SDI/HDMI Output[/TD]
[TD]10bit[/TD]
[TD]8bit[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Expandability[/TD]
[TD]Sensor Upgrade[/TD]
[TD]Sell/Repurchase[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stills[/TD]
[TD]5k APS-H @ 12fps RAW[/TD]
[TD]*5k FF35 @ 12fps RAW[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lens Mount[/TD]
[TD]Interchangeable[/TD]
[TD]Fixed[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Integrated HDR[/TD]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[TD]No[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Availability[/TD]
[TD]In-Stock[/TD]
[TD]"by End of 2012"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

And by the time the 1D-C is out we'll have Dragon-Scarlet most likely. But the 1D-C does look like a good 4k lightweight self-sustained documentary camera. Much easier to load up on CF-Cards and hit the wilds than a laptop and REDCard reader.

Scott Crawley said:
Really? Show me how you do that, and tell me what job that set up will be ready to handle.
Click to expand...
Well If you didn't include batteries (which the 1D doesn't include either it would bring you down to $15.9k and if you bought one 64GB card and were willing to shoot 12:1 you could shoot about an hour of footage on one card for $15k.

*:

Scarlet:
$11,700 (body, SSD drive, Al Mount)
$1,500 (5" Touchscreen)
$1900 (2x 64GB cards)
$600 (Wooden Camera V-Mount)
$400 (4x 95wh batteries Axrtec)
$200 (V-Mount Charger)
$200 (Redstation USB3)
$200 (Wooden Camera SideHandle)

$16,700

Canon:
$15,000 (body, mount etc)
$690 (6x LP-E4 Batteries)
$879 (2x SanDisk Extreme Pro 64GB Cards) (Is this fair? Will it use substantially less space than a Scarlet?)
$450 (SmallHD 4" LCD) (Is the new 1D's LCD usable?)

$17,019
 
I bought into RED because of the upgrades and loyalty they show to their customers. I knew at some point the other camera companies would have similar products, but they WON'T be upgrading your sensor any time soon. Just ask everyone that bought a C-300.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Feature[/TD]
[TD]Scarlet[/TD]
[TD]1D-C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Price (shooting package)[/TD]
[TD]~$16.5k*[/TD]
[TD]~$15.5k[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4k fps[/TD]
[TD]30p[/TD]
[TD]24p[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sensor Size[/TD]
[TD]s35[/TD]
[TD]s35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Low Light Noise[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]X[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]RAW[/TD]
[TD]X[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bit Depth[/TD]
[TD]16bps[/TD]
[TD]8bps[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chroma Sampling[/TD]
[TD]~4:4:4[/TD]
[TD]4:2:2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dynamic Range[/TD]
[TD]~13 stops[/TD]
[TD]??[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

I thought DSMC REDCODE RAW was 14 bit?
 
Tom Lowe said:
I thought DSMC REDCODE RAW was 14 bit?
Click to expand...
I seem to remember that too. (Not that 16bits does any good for a 13 stop sensor). But RED.com reads:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="bgcolor: #333333"]
[TH]REDCODE™[/TH]
[TD]16-bit RAW Processing : Compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1
1-12 fps 5K FF
1-30 fps 4K HD
1-48 fps 3K HD
1-60 fps 1080p HD
1-120 fps 1K
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Hmm, agree, Gavin. However... also in Canon C300's favor:

1. cost of media
2. uncropped nice downscaled 1080p / 60
3. light weight
4. battery life
5. top-of-class still photo ability
6. greater chance of actually playing back a PJPEG 4K file without a CANONROCKET

Look, there's no way in hell I'm buying this stupid 1D-C thing as a hobby toy... apart from total lack of funds, personally I think that Sony's going to do a 4K video DSLR for muuuuch cheaper within the next year or two.

I wouldn't buy it for pro use either... unless I was planning on shooting some guerrilla thing, in which case, shooting 4K with something that looks like a DSLR could save me $15,000 in permits :) I for one have a vivid memory of lugging a RED ONE around while being chased by an official on a bicycle... with this thing nobody would have looked twice!

Personally I think that this is Canon's defensive move against RED's DSMC intiative. Let's face it, there are a lot of fashion photographers who are... well, kinda nitwits. They probably are worried about Epic / Scarlet... but really have NO CLUE how to handle an R3D and if given half a chance they'd much rather stick with their Canons. So this gives them an excuse to buy a new cam and pretend that they are future-proof. Well, at least they can tell their clients "IT SHOOTS 4K!". And hey... it will shoot great stills and video that'll look really sharp on a laptop - and in the end of the day, I think that's all some people want.

Tom Lowe said:
Am I missing something? Isn't 8 bit a dealbreaker for anyone who is serious about filmmaking?
Click to expand...

Well... Sony F900 was 8-bit! This Canon one is 8-bit Log, which should actually make better use of the bits available too...

Also, once you scale down a normally-noisy 4K 8-bit file to HD, you have more like 9-bit... as long as it didn't macroblock.

And when you apply noise reduction, that can sometimes create in-between tones.

So yeah, 8-bit can be decent. A bit worried about when they stick the PJPEG compression on top of that, though...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Tom Lowe said:
Try entering a car race with a minivan sporting a 150hp motor. You are going to get your ass handed to you by a guy in a Ferrari. Specs and numbers do matter.
Click to expand...

It's a question of the right tool for the job!

Try picking up a family of five from the airport in a Ferrari.
The 150hp minivan has the clear advantage here.

Same holds true for cameras. Pick the right tool for the job at hand.

All the Best!

Dave
 
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