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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet and Producers

Jay Birch

Jay Birch

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Can I got an honest opinion on how the Scarlet is perceived by producers and decision makers.

Does it get asked for? Is it shunned/out of favour? somewhere in the middle?

I want to move more into the industry and have good, creative leads.... Scarlet seems to fit alot of my needs, but I hear alot of stories about certain cameras being the in thing (Alexa, C300, Epic).
 
I would say there is more stigma in the film industry as opposed to the commercial (UK). They are more used to getting a lot for nothing here on low budget films. The idea of getting something less (than Epic/Alexa) puts them off. I don't think it's a problem with the camera, I think it's a problem with perception.

We own a Scarlet and we get a great response from clients (decision makers at Agencies and Brands). Clients are generally happy about the work, talent and result, as opposed to the equipment used. Not sure about hire, and I know producers will often go with what they've been told by crew. It seems ridiculous considering those producers were quite happy shooting RED ONE and before that digibeta, HDV etc. The Scarlet is a great tool for creating beautiful imagery. We've used it on many occasions to make our clients happy. Showing people examples of the work you can create with the tools you have will help sell yourself and your kit.

If it meets the requirements of the job and can make nice looking pictures, then really there's nothing wrong with that choice of camera. It's competitors are the big boys Epic/Alexa. Once more high profile work is shot on the Scarlet I'm sure it will become less of a problem. Speaking as a colourist and a company owner, It's 10 times better than a C300. That being said, each camera has it's perks...The Scarlet suits us just fine.
 
I agree that there is a stigma on the Scarlet but the Epic has more features that Producers may or may not even use. If they can afford it, they prefer the opportunity to use those features (sometimes because they don't know if it might come in handy - i.e. slow mo). Plus 5k is what makes them think is better then 4k (which sounds logical and true).

I try promoting that I have a RED Camera (not Scarlet or Epic till they ask). Scarlet may attract more the dslr crowd cause of the cost factor to rent or finally own. This would be their jump into the high quality world.

Personally, I would love to hear more feature films with A-List actors that shot on Scarlet...not sure how many exist as my guess is everyone wants the best (and at that level have the budget for Epics instead).

Still, I love my Scarlet and there's no way I would be able to afford an Epic. Unless I become well known, there's probably no way I'd afford an Epic ever nor come close to that level. That's reality. Then again, if I did finally get the budget, I'd get some A-List celebs to be in my films and perhaps promote the Scarlet that way
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I think you won't find many films with A-List actors being shot on scarlet mainly because if they can afford to use epic or alexa. Where you may find it being used more is in 2nd unit or a 2, 3 or 4th camera to get that extra angle. I think main reason to shot on epic would be better use of the sensor, lens range etc.
 
My thoughts... A shooter that can get great images out of a Scarlet can get great images out of just about any modern camera. If you have producers asking you to shoot on a Scarlet then by all means buy one. But I think the days of "if I own camera X they will come" are all but gone. With technology changing so rapidly, we have decided to just keep a few low cost cameras in house and rent anything above what we house. That way we can shoot on any camera made without having to invest in the purchase of the camera. I also think some producers tend to be fickle, and select a camera based on the current fad rather than selecting the best camera for the job at hand. Case in point, in my market there are a number of Red cameras just sitting unused, because the current fad here is shooting with a 5DmkII type full frame camera to get that obnoxious ultra shallow DOF where only a persons nose is in focus. Go figure!
 
Thanks guys, pretty much what I suspected... but never heard much mentioned.

I have always found it strange that a producer/bean counter can have so much sway over the image capture, but it seems worryingly true.

We will be moving into the advertising/creative side of things... So it sounds a bit less of a fashion statement/badge of honour, judging by Jason's post.
 
I think you have to take into account that the camera rent now is not a huge part of the budgets for most productions. Here in stockholm you get a good Epic package for 1200USD including client monitor camera trolly tripod, battery ect... Renting a scarlet should be about 1/5th of that price. and it actually is so scarlet day rate here lands on about 350USD including the gear around it. The mistake many people do is that they see the old time Arri 435 kind of rental prices but that is all long gone since a camera house does not cost 250k USD any more. Also most do not realize how much stuff you need around the camera to even make it a package. The producer usually rents, lights, dollys, cranes etc for a major rental house... then the little discount that you can give on renting your camera to them is what? I mean you can deduct 50USD from the usual 350USD prise the gib rental house charge. But they can easily make it up on the lights, the cranes and a the rest. And further more when their camera does not work then they send out another one since they have a few on the shelf. When that happen to you you actually stall the whole production and all you can do is trying to save it with the 300USD that you just made....

So basically I think that if you are in charge of the productions then a scarlet is a good thing to buy. If you are a freelancing camera assistant or DP then buying a camera and renting it out to the jobs your doing is not only making you a questionable authority since you kind of recommend your own product you are also taking a much greater risk then if you work with a camera that is rented else where and you are only called in to operate it... something many do not think about.

So when the camera is bad and it's yours... then the producer will look at you and they will see you as something just as bad as that camera you brought. Then you ruined the shot for those moments it does not matter if you blame it on RED, say that you never had problems before, blame it on the weather or acctually on the guy that dropped the camera into the ground.... those things does not matter it will become your problem and shadows will fall upon you.

That's how it all works, I do not mean to scare you off or anything, but in short thats how I see it.
 
Scarlet has a big perception problem here.... Producers and Production Managers do not know what it is. They know Alexa, Epic, 5D... and recently C300.

As a DP with an Epic, I keep it as a backup / 2nd body.

Despite it being significantly cheaper to rent, the Scarlet hardly ever goes out.
 
Scarlet falls in a difficult rental category to sell.

From my experience a lot of indies are asking about rental packages/prices etc. Maybe 2-3% of everyone who asked will rent, cause the majority is turned away by rental prices and turn to something like 5D instead. On the other side there are big projects that usually need even more than one camera, there is a lot of "fishing" on their end to, but again only small percentage of these inquiries result in actual rentals. Somehow these guys almost always manage to find Epic or Alexa deal and they indeed perceive Scarlet as some kind of "disabled" camera in relation to Epic, even though they might shoot the whole project in 4K and never use more than 50fps for slow-mo. By the way, when a project is a music video Epic's slow-mo usually ends up being a huge selling point over Scarlet.

Another major factor is lenses. You better have at least something like a complete Zeiss CP.2 kit, 99% of the time big clients ask for PL-mount and your lenses. Indies are not as picky in terms of lenses.

There is however a third group of clients, who have money, but not as much as jumbo productions and they do know what they want, they know what Scarlet is, what Epic is, what Alexa is, and what they will do on this certain project. These people come to you asking for Scarlet specifically and to be honest it's the largest group in terms of rentals.

P.S.: Just as an example, a friend of mine who owns an Epic is now shooting a sci-fi short. The shoot is completely financed by writer/director and other crew members. Instead of renting Scarlet they've been saving for some time to afford an Epic. Sometimes no tech specs and price/performance points can win over what's going on in peoples heads.
 
Jay Birch said:
Can I got an honest opinion on how the Scarlet is perceived by producers and decision makers.
Click to expand...
I think the question get's a different answer by country and then by industry group. For corporate and short work in the US, Scarlet's seen as a great B or "safety" camera (i.e. if i walk on, i expect to see an epic, but often i don't see a backup camera which trigger's "worry" questions to the crew, money guys worrying isn't good). I personal check for crap sound first (I'm ok walking on seeing a canon5d, even for a important shoot if i see good sound, nice mixer, a dedicated sound guy that has his headphones on, etc ..) i know the production is in trouble the second i see bad sound, my second trigger point is bad makeup(i view most of these as unfixable in post). Third thing i check is the lighting btw. I have no idea on corporate work outside the US and feature film perception.
 
PatrickFaith said:
I think the question get's a different answer by country and then by industry group.
Click to expand...

Yea, i thought that when i started this post... but didn't want to dissuade people from sharing.

I'll be UK based, so will be somewhat different from the states.... but probably more similarities than differences, as the market here is also flooded with cameras.
 
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