Scarlet and Dragon...

[Kyle Dones]

Got my fingers crossed. From Oakley's to One's to Scarlets, I've enjoyed them all! Can't wait to see some test footage of the Dragon sensor and really looking forward to the future of my Scarlet-X

 

[Gabriel Scindian]

I purchased my Epic last week. I'm waiting on FEDEx to get here. I will upgrade to Dragon with that since it is a better fit. My Scarlet is amazing especially when doing VFX, 12FPS 5k portraits, color grading in Smoke2013 etc but I am onboard with HFR even though most have doubts. The clarity and realism it provides is spectacular. There will be a new workflow to integrate vfx, cgi, etc to match the visual quality of cameras recording 48fps and beyond. New TV's will also support this. Future looks bright, embrace the new.

 

[Ted Parkes]

The Scarlet Dragon upgrade and the Epic upgrade just adds to the the Red line up... a camera for every need and everyone.. can't wait to see if I'll stick with Scarlet end the upgrade or go to an Epic X

 

[Björn Benckert]

Just as an advice, I offered this to a few scarlet users here in stockholm.

Basically we lend them our epic for a day when they need it and it's available, in other words not in use or rented out. In return they give us 2 scarlet days per epic day. This is a win win solution. Just as a scarlet user can need the highspeed resolution and so on we just as much like to get dual cameras going for some shoots, doing time lapse on a scarlet or use it as b cam or such. As the price is just about double for epic the 2 to 1 trade ratio is fair for all I think. Lenses an such things we stick to our own, just basic camera package are moved. As I think very few owners has their cameras in use every day of the week it works pretty well.

 

[dennys bisogno]

Just as an advice, I offered this to a few scarlet users here in stockholm.

Basically we lend them our epic for a day when they need it and it's available, in other words not in use or rented out. In return they give us 2 scarlet days per epic day. This is a win win solution. Just as a scarlet user can need the highspeed resolution and so on we just as much like to get dual cameras going for some shoots, doing time lapse on a scarlet or use it as b cam or such. As the price is just about double for epic the 2 to 1 trade ratio is fair for all I think. Lenses an such things we stick to our own, just basic camera package are moved. As I think very few owners has their cameras in use every day of the week it works pretty well.

Bjorn, that seems a clever and very fair exchange - As a Scarlet user, would love to have this available to me - but I do not live in stockholm :blush:

PS: sorry I could not get my keyboard to get me the correct spelling of your name :yesnod:

 

[Bob Gundu]

Brilliant!

Just as an advice, I offered this to a few scarlet users here in stockholm.

Basically we lend them our epic for a day when they need it and it's available, in other words not in use or rented out. In return they give us 2 scarlet days per epic day. This is a win win solution. Just as a scarlet user can need the highspeed resolution and so on we just as much like to get dual cameras going for some shoots, doing time lapse on a scarlet or use it as b cam or such. As the price is just about double for epic the 2 to 1 trade ratio is fair for all I think. Lenses an such things we stick to our own, just basic camera package are moved. As I think very few owners has their cameras in use every day of the week it works pretty well.

 

[Doug Beatty]

Just as an advice, I offered this to a few scarlet users here in stockholm.

Basically we lend them our epic for a day when they need it and it's available, in other words not in use or rented out. In return they give us 2 scarlet days per epic day. This is a win win solution. Just as a scarlet user can need the highspeed resolution and so on we just as much like to get dual cameras going for some shoots, doing time lapse on a scarlet or use it as b cam or such. As the price is just about double for epic the 2 to 1 trade ratio is fair for all I think. Lenses an such things we stick to our own, just basic camera package are moved. As I think very few owners has their cameras in use every day of the week it works pretty well.

Any takers in LA? This is a great idea.

 

[chris layhe]

Just as an advice, I offered this to a few scarlet users here in stockholm.

Basically we lend them our epic for a day when they need it and it's available, in other words not in use or rented out. In return they give us 2 scarlet days per epic day. This is a win win solution. Just as a scarlet user can need the highspeed resolution and so on we just as much like to get dual cameras going for some shoots, doing time lapse on a scarlet or use it as b cam or such. As the price is just about double for epic the 2 to 1 trade ratio is fair for all I think. Lenses an such things we stick to our own, just basic camera package are moved. As I think very few owners has their cameras in use every day of the week it works pretty well.

Same goes for San Francisco area - we'd be happy to get a few Scarlet days in the bank in exchange for days with our Epic... give me a shout off forum a chris@clai.tv if it sounds like something you would be interested in.


Chris


Chris

 

[Les Hillis]

For those looking to upgrade their Scarlets to Dragon Epics, here are some numbers to consider. This is purely speculation on my part, but is based on Jarred's confirming the Scarlet upgrade to Dragon will be via trade-in, and on Jim's confirming the Dragon upgrade for Epic will be more than the previously announced $6000. It also assumes a full retail trade-in for the Scarlet, which hasn't even been mentioned let alone confirmed or guaranteed and is only assumed for the sake of making the numbers easier to work out. It also assumes there won't be a cheaper Dragon Epic with lesser performance specs, because I have no idea if there will even be such a thing or what one of those might cost.


Scarlet Brain current retail - $7950

Epic Brain current retail - $19000


Dragon upgrade for Epic >$6000

Epic + Dragon upgrade >$25000


Minus Scarlet $7950 Full Retail Trade-in = >$17050

*****

If the Epic Dragon upgrade is 33% more expensive than the previously stated $6000.

Dragon upgrade for Epic $8000 ($6000+$2000[33%])

Epic + Dragon upgrade $27000 ($19000 + $8000)

Minus Scarlet $7950 Full Retail Trade-in = $19950

*****

If the Epic Dragon upgrade is 50% more expensive than the previoulsy stated $6000.

Dragon upgrade for Epic $9000 ($6000+$3000[50%])

Epic + Dragon upgrade $28000 ($19000 + $9000)

Minus Scarlet $7950 Full Retail Trade-in = $20950

*****


I think it's very generous of RED to offer the trade-in option, and the Dragon sensor is looking like it will be amazing, but I hope people aren't expecting RED to be practically giving the things away. The whole RED camera range has shifted up a notch* with the Dragon sensor and it seems, to me anyway, there's no side-ways step Scarlet owners can make to get the Dragon sensor, it has to be via an upgrade to an Epic, even if 'just' by moving up to a (perhaps) lesser performing one (which is what I myself will probably be counting on).

Anyway, just putting it out there. Let me know if my numbers or reasonings are incorrect or misleading and I'll correct or delete them.

*Come to think of it, it's not just the RED camera range but the whole digital cinema camera range that's been expanded, out beyond film, just so happens RED is the only one with a known product in that space.

 

[Wil Wong]

Nice breakdown Les. Yeah I have to admit that Scarlet users shouldn't expect their price to be cheaper then that of an Epic user. If lucky, they'll get full value of their Scarlet brain (which who else does that...seriously, who other than Red).

That said, it would make no sense for any Scarlet user to expect upgrading to an Epic Dragon to be cheaper then "full value". They are lucky if they get that for a trade-in of a 'used' camera. So, with the notion of a crippled Scarlet or upgrade to Epic-X now seems over, going the Epic-Dragon route will cost Scarlet owners most likely no discount. However, remember that no other company would give a trade-in. Imagine trying to sell your Scarlet. You'd be lucky to get close to full price on something used.

Luckily, Scarlet has a path to Epic-Dragon. Save your cash now (like all of us). If you can't afford it, just be happy with what you have. It's an awesome camera. I had one. I know.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

For those looking to upgrade their Scarlets to Dragon Epics, here are some numbers to consider. This is purely speculation on my part, but is based on Jarred's confirming the Scarlet upgrade to Dragon will be via trade-in, and on Jim's confirming the Dragon upgrade for Epic will be more than the previously announced $6000. It also assumes a full retail trade-in for the Scarlet, which hasn't even been mentioned let alone confirmed or guaranteed and is only assumed for the sake of making the numbers easier to work out. It also assumes there won't be a cheaper Dragon Epic with lesser performance specs, because I have no idea if there will even be such a thing or what one of those might cost.


Scarlet Brain current retail - $7950

Epic Brain current retail - $19000


Dragon upgrade for Epic >$6000

Epic + Dragon upgrade >$25000


Minus Scarlet $7950 Full Retail Trade-in = >$17050

*****

If the Epic Dragon upgrade is 33% more expensive than the previously stated $6000.

Dragon upgrade for Epic $8000 ($6000+$2000[33%])

Epic + Dragon upgrade $27000 ($19000 + $8000)

Minus Scarlet $7950 Full Retail Trade-in = $19950

*****

If the Epic Dragon upgrade is 50% more expensive than the previoulsy stated $6000.

Dragon upgrade for Epic $9000 ($6000+$3000[50%])

Epic + Dragon upgrade $28000 ($19000 + $9000)

Minus Scarlet $7950 Full Retail Trade-in = $20950

*****


I think it's very generous of RED to offer the trade-in option, and the Dragon sensor is looking like it will be amazing, but I hope people aren't expecting RED to be practically giving the things away. The whole RED camera range has shifted up a notch* with the Dragon sensor and it seems, to me anyway, there's no side-ways step Scarlet owners can make to get the Dragon sensor, it has to be via an upgrade to an Epic, even if 'just' by moving up to a (perhaps) lesser performing one (which is what I myself will probably be counting on).

Anyway, just putting it out there. Let me know if my numbers or reasonings are incorrect or misleading and I'll correct or delete them.

*Come to think of it, it's not just the RED camera range but the whole digital cinema camera range that's been expanded, out beyond film, just so happens RED is the only one with a known product in that space.

This seems ludicrous. People who couldn't afford the Epic in the first place should somehow have the cash to pay the same for an upgrade ~ new camera. I'm not suggesting it should be cheaper for Scarlet owners then Epic owners - of course. But what about an upgrade to an Epic-X Mysterium-X and with the possibilities of upgrading the sensor later. That would bring prices down a lot, people would still get a new improved camera, and with the possibility of upgrading the sensor at a more realistic price point. If these prices are the realistic prospects of the future, it's ridiculous to call this an upgrade of a camera sold for more or less half the price.

 

[Ted Parkes]

+1 Jesper ... make sense that most of the Scarlet owners would make the first step an Epic X .. That is my plan with or without Dragon.

 

[Jaakko Rinne]

This seems ludicrous. People who couldn't afford the Epic in the first place should somehow have the cash to pay the same for an upgrade ~ new camera. I'm not suggesting it should be cheaper for Scarlet owners then Epic owners - of course. But what about an upgrade to an Epic-X Mysterium-X and with the possibilities of upgrading the sensor later. That would bring prices down a lot, people would still get a new improved camera, and with the possibility of upgrading the sensor at a more realistic price point. If these prices are the realistic prospects of the future, it's ridiculous to call this an upgrade of a camera sold for more or less half the price.

I wouldn't call anything RED choose to offer in terms of upgrades ludicrous (be it what Les hypothesised or something else). Offering any possibility of upgrades at all is at their discretion and I for one will be grateful for the possibility even if the price ends up being out of my reach.

A single upgrade option from Scarlet-X to an Epic with the Dragon sensor makes the most sense to me. If you only want to step up to an Epic-X you can always sell your Scarlet and buy a used Epic.

 

[Peter Osinski]

I don't know what everyone is complaining about. ANY other company would have released the epic and scarlet and then when the dragon sensor came out would have said "ok now we have this brand new camera come pay full price for it."

To put it in perspective, imagine if sony had said they would take fs700's back and you could put them towards the purchase of an f5 or f55? People would shit their pants. The only reason people aren't ok with this is its RED and they expect too much

 

[Ted Parkes]

I agree and now a camera combination for everyone... I a, prepared to spend what I can when I can for more frame rates... not so much 6K. Now there are more amazing choices.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

I don't know what everyone is complaining about. ANY other company would have released the epic and scarlet and then when the dragon sensor came out would have said "ok now we have this brand new camera come pay full price for it."

To put it in perspective, imagine if sony had said they would take fs700's back and you could put them towards the purchase of an f5 or f55? People would shit their pants. The only reason people aren't ok with this is its RED and they expect too much

You forget one very important thing. Upgrade was part of their selling point. It was what made me certain to invest my money in Red.

 

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

This seems ludicrous. People who couldn't afford the Epic in the first place should somehow have the cash to pay the same for an upgrade ~ new camera. I'm not suggesting it should be cheaper for Scarlet owners then Epic owners - of course.

What are you suggesting? It be the same? You get to skip the Epic and go straight to Dragon for the same price as Epic owners? Not all, but there are certainly a lot of Scarlett owners who seem to forget they paid less than half for their Scarlett than for an Epic, for a camera they are always demanding be brought up to speed with the Epic. Not to mention, it is my opinion the Scarlett is more than half an Epic in performance, so really I thought it was a good deal.

But what about an upgrade to an Epic-X Mysterium-X and with the possibilities of upgrading the sensor later. That would bring prices down a lot, people would still get a new improved camera, and with the possibility of upgrading the sensor at a more realistic price point. If these prices are the realistic prospects of the future, it's ridiculous to call this an upgrade of a camera sold for more or less half the price.

I thought the Scarlet DID have the same chip/chip family... just different hardware/processor/etc to gather the information, such as HDRx, High FPS and 5k, etc. Someone correct me if I'm wrong... i just never really felt the image between the two were that different... just felt it was the features that were lacking on Scarlett.

Anyhow, I understand the concept of upgrading, however, sometimes it boggles my mind how people spend money, more money, and even more money to get their Honda Civic's tuned up to very high specs when typically they could have just saved money by buying a base-model car with those specs to begin with. Eventually, when you buy the lower base model and upgrade, you will likely lose pace. It's how it goes. But you can always be happy your Civic can be upgraded... but it will never be a 'vette.

As for Red, I don't say this much, but they have really just made everything that much easier. Upgrading to an Epic camera by means of buying one just fell $10,000. So you have that... I also don't understand why you paying less for a Scarlett means you shouldn't pay more for a Dragon upgrade. Not sure how that logic works.

Would multiple upgrades from Scarlett to Epic to Dragon REALLY bring prices down? I'd argue not. I'd argue the whole upgrade process probably costs Red more money in the long run. They still need to buy those hardware pieces, and swap them out with the ones you have now. So there are not any savings on hardware, on top of that, I have a feeling it would cost Red more money because of time and money factor. Surely making an Epic on the assembly line requires less attention from technicians and/or time than receiving your shipped Scarlett, opening it up, cleaning it out, removing the old hardware, installing the new, running diagnostics, and etc. Now if they did that multiple times for you, because instead of buying an Epic or Dragon, you upgrade through the several intermediary upgrade paths, as you suggest, they are now doing this to your camera multiple times.

Trust me, it's probably less expensive for them to just have you buy a factory line Dragon, than to upgrade your Scarlett with new sensors, processors, and other hard ware over multiple upgrade sessions.

I do feel for people who can't afford an Epic or Dragon, but that does not mean you are owed anything.

 

[Peter Osinski]

You forget one very important thing. Upgrade was part of their selling point. It was what made me certain to invest my money in Red.

Thats my point exactly. Red says you can upgrade so people buy epics and scarlets. You can put a dragon in an epic but not a scarlet so they let you trade it in.

I think a good analogy would be that if red sold cars the scarlet would be a bmw and the epic would be a ferari. Now comes the upgrade. Well Red found a way to drop a formula one engine in a ferari but not into a bmw. So if you want you can trade in the bmw towards the price of an upgraded ferari, which is more than fair.

These are the facts

1. It's cheaper to upgrade to an epic-x or to an epic dragon than it is to turn scarlet into a scarlet dragon
2. There is an upgrade offered and it costs a certain amount. I think your issue is that the upgrade is so significant that you can't afford it and your budget would have been more suited to a lesser upgrade (like paying the difference to go to an epic? sounds about right)
3. Red said you could upgrade, they didn't say how big of a step that would be, and they always said it would cost more for scarlet owners.

This is the reason I didn't purchase a scarlet. I don't deliver in 4k now, can rent when I need it, and by the time 4k is standard I'm sure the scarlet will be obsolete, the epic-x will be close to obsolete, and the dragon epic will fit in reds product line like red ones do now

 

[Cédric Laty]

The big question for me is : Can we hope for a firmware with ANA mode and 120FPS @ 4k ?
i hope

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

2. There is an upgrade offered and it costs a certain amount. I think your issue is that the upgrade is so significant that you can't afford it and your budget would have been more suited to a lesser upgrade (like paying the difference to go to an epic? sounds about right)

That's a bingo!

3. Red said you could upgrade, they didn't say how big of a step that would be, and they always said it would cost more for scarlet owners.

True, but if I indeed had the amount of money it took to buy an Epic, why wouldn't I already have done it? How many Epic owners do you think could afford to pay 40.000 to upgrade their camera? Or more importantly wouldn't feel scammed?
It seems like when life smiles at you it seems fair, but when it doesn't suddenly things aren't in order. And it would seem like Scarlet was the biggest mistake Red ever made.