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RONIN-M or HELIX-JNR ?

Antony Newman

Antony Newman

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I have been trying to piece together information that could help choose between these two competing gimbals for Weapon use - but am lacking sufficient real world experience to make an informed choice.


Any opinions on pros / cons / or preferences?


Thanks,
AJ

===== FEEDBACK =====

Self_Weight : M= 5.07 lb / Jr= 4.75 lb (with battery), or 3.65 lb (no battery=fly mode)
{ new Magnesium full size Helix is ~5lb . Available from 23rd Apr 2015 }
Carry_Weight : M= 8 lb / Jr= 12 lb (Letus) ... but 7 lb (from B&H site)
Weight of : Weapon_CF = 3.27lb / Jetpack = 0.5 lb
Cost B&H : M= $1,399 / Jr= $2,899
Wireless : M= 2.4Ghz controller / Jr= Blutooth (to config it)
Battery_Life : M=? / Jr= 2 hrs (2600 mAh) & Helix_Juicebox = (5200 mAh)
Gimbal_Batter_can_Power_Red : M=No / Jr= ? (Helix_Juicebox can for ? mins)
Customer_Service : DJI = ? / Letus = Extraordinary x 2 (& 5 x amazing from GB thread)

=== VIDEOS ===

Ronin M : 'Visionised' : Bicycle carry : http://youtu.be/RraGJ3TuZrE
Jr : CEO : Cinema5d : http://www.cinema5d.com/letus-helix-jr-unique-gimbal-product-nab-2015/
Jr : CEO : Newsshooter interview : https://vimeo.com/124982247
Helix (not Jr) : Robert Berger : RED Epic : http://www.camlight.nl/portfolio/letus-helix-test/
Helix (not Jr) : Scott Clark : Epic Dragon through modern Architecture : https://vimeo.com/118523552
Jr : Tom Guilmette : 5d3 around building Ruins : http://youtu.be/G8ovZqyjitQ
Helix : Daniel Brown : Skiing : https://vimeo.com/125835329
Helix : Chris Vermaak : One axis on Steadycam : https://vimeo.com/106169050
Movi : http://theberrics.com/gen-ops-new-balance-numeric-sunland-behind-the-scenes/
Ronin M : Felix P : Road Run & Skateboard https://vimeo.com/129370312
Ronin M : Albert Gonazalez : Warehouse : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9fvIz7zHck&spfreload=10
Ronin M : Adam Palmer : Happy Dog in Park : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcDka6KUitw

=== MISC ====

Jr : For the Jr to work with heaviers REDs -> Recommended to get (larger) HELIX plate
Jr : Might be possible for iOS integration with RED SDK ? GUI is written in Java
M : Might be possible for iOS integration with RED SDK ?
Jr : Transport : DIY : Fits in a custom Pelican 1510 (with foam)
Jr : Mention of 'New monitor extension' on 16th Apr'15 <Daniel Kelly Brown>

=== AWARDS ===

+ Jr : "The Helix line has been chosen the 'Best Pro Video Camera Accessory' of NAB 2015."

=== HAND POSITION WHEN USING GIMBALS ===

+) Bjorn Champentier : Wandering DP 004 : Wanted his hands at the Same level as the lens.
He 'got a work out' from having the hold his hands above his head.

=== CENTRE OF GRAVITY ADJUSTMENT ===

+) Bjorn B : Gimbals should have counter weights build in to adjust the optical centre of the camera. The Helix (and Jr?) are designed for this. The DJI Ronin / Ronin M do not have this buld in.

==== REPORTED ISSUES ====
2015-03-09 : Jr : Florin : Small Vibrations (stutterings) + Random switching to briefcase mode. [AJ] Not sure if this has been solved - but there are different PROFILES that can - I believe - increase the torque.

2014-12-30 : Helix : Stephan : Well after reading through the online training again, I tried resetting ethe Helix in the default position, pressing the button 5 times in a row. Presto, the helix is now totally silent and smooth. You might try that out and see if that works for you.

2015-04-25 : Helix : Hal : This one has worked pretty well for me. I've found vibrations to come from the balance being off, too little motor power or having Pan & Roll PIDs that are too far off. This is a pretty slow response, smooth setting. I've used it for handheld and for car-car work on a dirt off road trail with very good results.
 
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One data point - not sure what the M can really carry but the Helix Jr. has been shown carrying a set-up much greater than its "recommended" 7 lb max. I tried it at NAB and it was rock solid.

Also, not sure of the M price but, if in doubt about what you might want to fly, consider the standard Helix.
 
I'm debating as well. Helix is far superior design, heck the ronin m is so cheap you'll be able to rent it for a week for $75 from lensrentals.com, just guessing but probably not far off

Can anyone comment on there being more vertical motion with the helix vs the other gimbal style?

Edit: I've personally decided on the helix. Now to go big or small....
 
@Jake - Helix can operate in a "suitcase" mode which means you drop one hand off the unit and lower the camera lens to just a few inches off the ground. On the high side, the camera sits directly between your hands so you can raise the lens as high as you can lift your arms and, of course, control the tilt while doing it. This range can all be accomplished in one smooth move; allowing for a continuous shot that goes from a few inches from the deck to maybe 7 feet (and vice versa).

The only thing to plan for in this high-to-low movement is viewing the screen during the entire move.

I know that the other units can operate in both underslung and over slung modes, which allows for a similar range of movement (maybe even a bit higher on the high side). However (!), I believe that the transition from underslung to over slung (and the reverse) can not be accomplished without compromising the footage during the transition. Thus, it seems unlikely, if not impossible, to get this motion in one continuous shot.
 
To clarify, I read somewhere footsteps read more on the helix vs other systems, care to comment on that? Also, I can't find what the actual weight is of the new helix (large) magnesium version. Another question, can you add more accessory power outs on the Jr. like you can on the full size?
 
Jake Wilganowski said:
To clarify, I read somewhere footsteps read more on the helix vs other systems, care to comment on that? Also, I can't find what the actual weight is of the new helix (large) magnesium version. Another question, can you add more accessory power outs on the Jr. like you can on the full size?
Click to expand...

I have no experience with other gimbal stabilizers but, based on a lot of working with Helix as well as input from others, I would say the "footsteps" thing is pure bias (or BS, depending on your level of charitable inclination - lol).

AFAIK, the magnesium Helix is about 1.5 lbs. less than the aluminum but I'd let someone else jump in here to confirm.

Not sure about the power. You can email those folks at Letus and I am sure you will get a quick reply.
 
I own a Helix (not junior)

The after-sales service I have received from the Brittany and Aaron at Letus has been extraordinary.

Without doubt the best I have ever experienced.

Just my 2 cents.

Michael O'Donovan
 
I think the Ronin-M makes sense to me from the stand point of how quickly it tunes and balances. That said I have little to no experience with the Letus gimbals.

I'm not someone who would have it as a rental option necessary. I think to me it would be more of a I have it along on shoots to get specific shots if it were needed, and the incredible price of the Ronin-M is tough to beat.
 
After using the Ronin for so many months... While I think the Helix is a great system, I just wouldn't see myself using anything else then the Ronin type Gimbal, for more then one reason.

But Again, the Elix is a really great system, I just see the Ronin and especially so now the Ronin-M as fantastic system, especially as it is smaller lighter, and hopefully soon, self powering integration for camera a with on board battery...

Balancing and using the different modes of the Ronin has made this Gimbal superior to anything else I have tested, even at 10 times the price.

And while initially I went all out on making the Ronin as heavy lifter as possible with longer arms and so on... I came to truly appreciate its real qualities with smaller lighter set ups, and this is why I absolutely LOVE the new Ronin-M which kinda of forces you to truly think very well your RED camera set up, with smaller as possible lens amongst those you love, and go with wireless system for monitoring.

While the Ronin-M is truly ideal for the Weapon family, I see the Dragon taking great advantage too... Just at a all full pound heavier needs to keep that in mind when lensing for the job... :)
 
Thankyou everyone for the feedback.

+) What solution do people use for focusing?

+) Ronin-M : Is there a pass thorough power system in the works?

+) DJI : I was speaking the Epson BT-200 tech team who suggested that the your own teams are already into high quality, long range wireless video transmission. Is there any technology that you can bring to the gimbal world that would allow an HDMI 1080p image (from the Jetpack) send a low latency image to (proposed new device) DJI goggles that are partially transparent? (there must be a drone market for the receive and display side already). I suspect there ability to Focus on a large virtualised screen would also interest non-gimbal user.

EDIT 1 : Just starred reading about DJI Lightbridge. I guess there is a bandwidth vs range issues - in the a low latency short range transmission would be great for a Head-up-display in goggles - but not good for a drone. Is there an mileage on using 'Beamforming' technology from something like 802.11AC Wave 2?

EDIT 2 : Ten times lower latency example : http://m.eetindia.co.in/ART_8800711516_1800006_NP_6a6095ec.HTM#.VUXssnB4WrU

AJ
 
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Ketch im still waiting for your review as I really want to see where you see the advantage of Ronin... except the price and built like a tank (snow cant hurt it as much as to open Movi)
Havent tested Helix yet, but Movi works better on and off drone then Ronin. Worked with different ronins and they all have a bit of a drift,... screws get fucked over time (specially top teeth on the rail) also a heavy case and a heavy ronin is a big trouble when shootin in remote places. but the price is really good! Setting up is similar to Movi, not much difference there... doing different modes - Helix wins that one as you can go straight to suitcase mode between the shots and you dont need an extra stand to put it away as it can sit on the bottom plate.
Sorry but i have a feeling you are talking more form a sponsored side then a real hands on experience on all the systems... as Ronin really is not that much better.
Non of the system is perfect and it all depends on needs and money.
And for the light setups Zenmuse as a gimbal will always win but they are camera specific.
And this is not an attack. I really want to see the review so i can see where you got that oppinion and if my experience was wrong.
 
Uros Zuraj said:
Ketch im still waiting for your review as I really want to see where you see the advantage of Ronin... except the price and built like a tank (snow cant hurt it as much as to open Movi)
Havent tested Helix yet, but Movi works better on and off drone then Ronin. Worked with different ronins and they all have a bit of a drift,... screws get fucked over time (specially top teeth on the rail) also a heavy case and a heavy ronin is a big trouble when shootin in remote places. but the price is really good! Setting up is similar to Movi, not much difference there... doing different modes - Helix wins that one as you can go straight to suitcase mode between the shots and you dont need an extra stand to put it away as it can sit on the bottom plate.
Sorry but i have a feeling you are talking more form a sponsored side then a real hands on experience on all the systems... as Ronin really is not that much better.
Non of the system is perfect and it all depends on needs and money.
And for the light setups Zenmuse as a gimbal will always win but they are camera specific.
And this is not an attack. I really want to see the review so i can see where you got that oppinion and if my experience was wrong.
Click to expand...

Uros,

Please do remember that I have stated many times that any of my Sponsored Gear, is not forced on to me, but instead it is I who looks at the various offerings and then approach the manufacturer directly for test of the unit and only if I believe the uint fits my needs and is of great quality I then accept Sponsorship.

Same will be thru with our Film School form the Non-Profit, as while well receive a great deal of Sponsored gear, this will not change the fact that well only retain and use only the best of the best for our use and the teaching of our students.

So in turn rest assure that my opinion will always remain honest and thrustful to the quality of the gear used, and you will know that by watching the review of th eRonin once is up, as it will not only be about all the greatness of the Gimbal itself, but also about how and were it can be improved, giving the good and the bad of it as I do with anything in life.

My apologies one more time for the delays, but finally the wait will be over come next week... :)


As said in a recent reply to Phillis form DJI, also apologizing to him in person, I truly at this point have no excuse for the delays, but as many here know, I did had a good share of family and personal misfortunes this past year while in Italy...

But I am now back in the US for good, and this week will be AT LAST shooting that detail Video review with included step by step balancing and set up.


The advantages of the Ronin vs. others to me have become very evident during the use of it in several shoots with completely different set ups and with absolutely crazy different needs, I also posted a reply on the "New Ronin-M thread" http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?131121-New-DJI-Ronin-M&p=1506677&viewfull=1#post1506677
 
I was one of the early adopter of the helix last year. I have sold it since and am looking at the ronin M. I honestly am not expecting a better solution with the ronin m but for a quarter of the price I am willing to give up time and research to get it usable. The helix was great in many ways. When it was tuned properly, it was like a dream. With the monitor being connected to the camera, there is no disconnect in movement between the camera and what you are viewing. I truly believe this design is the future of gimbals. The time it took to get set up was the deal breaker. If you had a shake or a wiggle, retuning it was a pain with a laptop. The Alex Mos system seems built for robotic engineers, not filmmakers. I would spend a good part of a day in prep making sure it was going to work with the lens combo/weight I was using for the job. There was such little room for fast adaptability on set. The folks at letus are certainly dedicated and fantastic at customer service. I'm sure the helix will improve over time with all of their hard work and perhaps I'll jump back in then.
 
Philip,

As I said, the Helix is in my opinion a really nice system and it surely does have its lace in the market, but for me, it just does not have the fill, handle and capacities of use as the Ronin.

It is insane that they got with the new model to support such a crazy amount of weight, but again, what I am looking at after so much use of the Ronin, is to actually truly LIMIT the weight on the Gimbal, and use it as a super light set up, with NO support, absolutely NO extra rigging over my head or strapped on my back to help support the weight, and make all moments that much more obstructed.

I have decided that even the Ronin supports too much, as we tend to want to maximize that capacity and suffer the consequences in our shoots.

I for this truly embrace the new Ronin-M as the 8LB+ capacity is a truly sweet spot for a naked ready for combat Weapon/Epic/Scarlet camera set up.

The fact that the Ronin-M is DJI's second generation Hand Held Gimbal, makes you really think what their third generation will be like, as the Ronin-M has truly improved just about everything over the original Ronin.

Been Lighter, Smaller, Compact in both working and storing size, and technologically more advance of it's predecessor, I also love their Batery, 4 hours+ running time that charges in less then one, if and when DJI successfully allows for the onboard Ronin-M battery to power the RED... BINGO!!
 
I am probably one of the few who thinks that this really is a no contest. I understand that DJI and Freefly are great companies and they started the whole gimbal craze but I think the Helix is far superior in design and functionality not just to the Ronin and Movi but to any other gimbal on the market. I think Letus really hit a home run with the Helix. You can hold the Helix for a longer period of time without getting tired just because the handles are in the right place. You can put it on the floor without having to lug that stupid stand with you, and most importantly... it is very user friendly and easy to balance. I am about to order a Helix sometimes in the next couple of weeks for our Dragon, my only dilemma is do I go with the full size or can I get away with ordering the JR. I would love to get the JR.
 
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yes Ketch, I just can't see why the Ronin is better in ANY way than the helix, why do you think it is better, what can it do better than the Helix ?
 
Michael O said:
I own a Helix (not junior)

The after-sales service I have received from the Brittany and Aaron at Letus has been extraordinary.

Without doubt the best I have ever experienced.

Just my 2 cents.

Michael O'Donovan
Click to expand...

+1

All I can tell you is I was interested in the original Ronin and the Helix when both group buys first happened last year.. ended up going with the Helix and couldn't be more glad I did. It's been a very good year for me since then, in large part due to that decision.
 
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