Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

rodney charters mx and alexa

Status
Not open for further replies.
You're lucky guy.
I can only say that my RED ONE is great :-)

Jay Gannon said:
I said it on the Vimeo post, their both great cameras, some people will choose RED some will choose Arri, both can make great pictures and their quite closely matched in everything except resolution. Alexa may be better in some situations, MX may be better in others.
Click to expand...
 
Dustin Cross said:
The problem is, every digital camera except Red has its best signal output via SDI. What you see on that monitor on set is what you get and Red doesn't compete in that competition.

Dusty
Click to expand...


Why would this be the case,surely monitoring quality is an important part of the image capture equation?

Goodness,look at the response `apparent` monitor quality has created!..

Communication on the net is great an`all,but i does (can) create problems,and no doubt great and huge exasperation for Jim and the Red team when exchanges occur that only focus on a small corner of something.
 
HD-SDI / HDMI

HD-SDI / HDMI

This is of course important test if they are recording HS-SDI output :-)
Click to expand...

A fundamental problem is monitors cannot show the full Dynamic Range that the sensor captures.

You have to map the data into a lower DR, and that is what ISO, FLUT and the RANGE parameters do.


I can create - and remove - a similar effect of highlight clipping on my HDMI monitor just by tweaking those.

But my RAW data being recorded is not clipped, and is totally unaffected by these parameters.
 
Surely we don't have to tell one another to test gear for our own specific needs.
But it's naive to think that these tests have no impact on the industry.
Yes, monitoring is a vital part of the process, but if the chosen monitoring path fails to reveal much of the camera's ability, then we mustn't infer that the shortcomings are with the camera.
 
Stuart English said:
A fundamental problem is monitors cannot show the full Dynamic Range that the sensor captures.

You have to map the data into a lower DR, and that is what ISO, FLUT and the RANGE parameters do.
Click to expand...

It's pretty handy to have the camera doing that for you though. Certainly it would make on set monitoring a lot easier.

Might be nice if RED did their own MX vs. Alexa test through post to show what's really going on.
 
I'm looking forward to seeing the final footage comparisons. Displayed on a large screen, hopefully.
 
Graham_C said:
Why would this be the case,surely monitoring quality is an important part of the image capture equation?
Click to expand...

How useful is the video tap on a film camera for monitoring?

I think it would be great if Red had an awesome quality SDI output option, but it doesn't, so it shouldn't be used for judging image quality or setting exposure, just like the video tap on a film camera isn't used for judging image quality or setting exposure.

This test shows how much better the SDI out is on the Alexa. The Alexa might have more DR than MX, but we can't tell from this test.

I look forward to using an Alexa soon. Looks like a really nice camera and I really like the images that D-20 and D-21 produce and I am hoping Alexa makes the same filmy looking images.


Dusty
 
Michael Olsen said:
I think that Rodney's post carries with it a powerful message.

People are going to immediately judge based off what they get off the monitor without much care for ensuring everything was properly or equitably calibrated between the two cameras. If he can plug in a tap to Camera A and virtually instantly get a full (or close to full) representation of the cameras color space and DR, that will come off better than having to adjust settings and tweak formats to achieve the same thing on a comparison camera.

As Rodney wrote on the vimeo page:
"your[sic] right but onset I have to rely on that monitor on the set and thats where it is comforting to SEE whats on the neg its so much easier to make decision and faster"

In other words - with Alexa I can more easily the see full gamut of what the camera is recording. I may be able to see more in post with both cameras, but this one shows me more right now.
Click to expand...

This is a very fair an valid point when it comes to comparing it to the video output of the RED ONE.

To me RED is "film style", it's like knowing a film stock, the monitor is a guide. But I completely understand that if a tool is showing you "exactly" what you are going to get all the way through, it can make life quicker and easier on a large set.

In my smaller production pipeline this is less of a concern, but I think it is a valid point that will disappear with EPIC.

David
 
Maryem, you're right, Alexa is far from a sub-par product, but it's a very pricey product in an industry that is changing by the week. There are not many people out there who can heedlessly throw that kind of money around whilst knowing their gear ( quality) might be considered gray in a short time. We have not yet reached a point where additional quality is moot. Far from it. And there are many who desire that quality. Alexa needs every ounce of juice squeezed out of it. What doesn't these days.
 
Bill Anderson said:
Maryem, you're right, Alexa is far from a sub-par product, but it's a very pricey product in an industry that is changing by the week. There are not many people out there who can heedlessly throw that kind of money around whilst knowing their gear ( quality) might be considered gray in a short time. We have not yet reached a point where additional quality is moot. Far from it. And there are many who desire that quality. Alexa needs every ounce of juice squeezed out of it. What doesn't these days.
Click to expand...

I was just trying to say that Alexa *has* to be all the things that RED ONE is perceived *not* to be (perception being halfway to truth), to justify their price point. Otherwise, why would they bother?

This "test" is pretty half-baked, (and why is it that great cinematographers seem to suck rocks at shooting video with a handycam?? anyone?) but I think Rodney Charters' word alone carries a lot of weight...all the more so because he was an early proponent of RED ONE.
 
Chris Parker said:
I deleted my own message. It said nothing of importance, but I didn't want to get involved in this discussion. All I can say is that I think (and have always thought) choice is good, and having a few good digital cinema cameras out there benefits us all.
Click to expand...

Chris,

This is a fair and valid approach. Competition is good. Maybe in a few months when RED plays their next card we will all be blown away. :)

Talented artists will all benefit from how companies strive for imaging excellence. We all actually win.

Getting drawn to far into arguments about monitoring paths gets a bit defeatist.

Rodney is a respected pro and said a lot of great things about the RED when ALEXA was not yet on the scene.

David
 
HD-SDI output

HD-SDI output

How useful is the video tap on a film camera for monitoring?
Click to expand...

On EPIC we provide full resolution 1920 x 1080p video outputs, on the RED ONE it is a HD resolution video tap.

This test shows how much better the SDI out is on the Alexa.
Click to expand...

It does suggest the HD-SDI output was better set up on Alexa in that test, we really can't say more than that.

The Alexa might have more DR than MX, but we can't tell from this test.
Click to expand...

Agreed, you can't make any sensor DR judgement from that test.
 
I think RED has been supremely clever: upgradable camera modules. You've got to bend with the prevailing wind. I think I just heard another of Jim's turbos kick in (:
Very interesting times.
 
We might also qualify this test with Charters' remark "the highlights are mostly gone and the shadows are struggling to be there"...
 
This "test" is potentially misleading, for all the reasons noted above. It does indicate a better DR from the monitor output, but are the highlights exposed identically? Each camera might need a different aperture. I'd love to see the difference after post.

If one is relying on that monitor output for lighting decisions, I can see the significance. I wonder if modifying the Red SDI output is software or hardware (another module) driven.

As mentioned above, the decision between more photo sites and bigger photo sites is the bottom line here. I shoot Nikon and Canon, and get one more stop out of the larger Nikon pixels. But for detailed shots, the higher resolution Canon looks better. Epic Alexa could be a similar situation. For my work (nature), I need the detail of the higher resolution (Red/Canon in this comparison)
 
Correct me if I am wrong but Alexa exposes additional frames for highlights only, then combining that information into your original frame for improved DR. If thats the case it would make sense that it would monitor better highlights, but aren't these camera software tricks? I know RED has a few of their own tricks up the sleeve that we will see in the future, so many things un announced. Would be nice to toggle RAW highlights only in a given frame, even better if that was backed in the metadata.
 
The HD-SDI output from RED ONE is only a very "quick & dirty" debayer and more importantly an INTERPRETATION of the RAW data based on Your monitoring setting. It does not represent the entire RAW data range - which is impossible with the current monitoring technologies. We use the LCD/EVF mostly for composing the shot only. I always check my RAW meters and false colors to check my exposure. Trying to "judge" camera's DR based on "video-tap" and making such a statement is in my opinion unprofessional (and misleading)...

Does the Alexa have a better DR then the M-X sensor? Maybe. But this is not the way to find out.
Only proper chart/exposure tests in a controlled environment would reveal the actual DR of any sensor...

Just my two cents,

Peter
 
Stuart English said:
A question to ask would be: what was the signal range setting of RED ONE's HD-SDI output and Panasonic monitor's input - FULL RANGE or SMPTE ?

Because if there is a mis-match you can observe a visual symptom like this - clipped whites and crushed blacks (default for RED ONE is FULL RANGE )
Click to expand...


Hey Stuart I am not seeing a SMPTE or FULL option in out Pani 1710's.
Is there an option i'm missing to correctly show the full or better range for correct viewing...

Thanks
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top