rodney charters mx and alexa

[Chris Parker]

I deleted my own message. It said nothing of importance, but I didn't want to get involved in this discussion. All I can say is that I think (and have always thought) choice is good, and having a few good digital cinema cameras out there benefits us all.

 

[Álex Montoya]

So you're implying that Rodney is right?

 

[Michael Olsen]

One of the things I have always taken away from David Mullen's postings is his thoughtful insistence that we shouldn't really trust any tests but our own - not because people are necessarily malevolent, but because its the only way we can really know about the controls and variables.

What can I say - I'd love to be afforded the opportunity in this instance. :beer:

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Look, I get it. Everybody loves Raymond... er, Arri.

So, please, my trusted pros...

If you are tempted to do "tests" of these two cameras, tests that should be done, tests that will probably reveal that they are both very capable systems-- please consider that in some cases your reputation and credibility will inevitably be called into question. You owe it to your peers and the people who look up to you and respect your work, to do these comparisons with a proper regimen and a protocol. You can't just shoot from hip on stuff like this, its a waste of your time. It's beneath you.

Ask yourself if its worth it, first of all. At best, these "tests" reveal nothing more than your lack of technical skill and at worst, your own bias. They don't influence the core market conditions that these cameras face and they don't impact the companies for better or worse. Red and Arri are perfectly capable of dividing this pie themselves. And Arri doesn't need a "fixer" to referee the fight when they step in the ring.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

One of the things I have always taken away from David Mullen's postings is his thoughtful insistence that we shouldn't really trust any tests but our own - not because people are necessarily malevolent, but because its the only way we can really know about the controls and variables.

What can I say - I'd love to be afforded the opportunity in this instance. :beer:

Absolutely. But till you have the opportunity, you have to rely on outside tests/opinion. For example, the ability to see exactly what you get on the monitor on set is clearly important to Rodney. Perhaps more important than resolution. Hence, his choice is Alexa.

Someone else might not even look at a monitor. We have to decide for ourselves in the end. But of course, not all of us have access to an Alexa, so the only information we can get is through tests conducted by others.

 

[Michael Totten]

I'm not saying Rodney's test was scientific at all (clearly a real test needs to be done)... But it is possible that Alexa has more DR than Red-MX . After all Alexa does have less resolution and bigger pixels, correct ?

Look at Canon vs. Nikon. The D3 & D3s are the DR/Lowlight kings (at the expense of resolution).

Wouldn't these principles hold true in the Red vs Alexa discussion ?

The other thing, the very fact that Red-MX ($17,500 + $5,000 sensor upgrade) is being compared to Arri Alexa ($60K-70K) speaks loudly... it's kind of a compliment.
Red is just fine...

 

[Dan Kanes]

No, it would not.

Stuart, can you explain why a 720p downscaled image from the R1MX wouldn't make a difference when doing a comparison to a 1080p image from the Alexa?

My belief is that this is indeed a review of the monitoring paths and not the raw image recorded by the camera...

Here's another little twist for you - would love to see a comparison of a Canon HDSLR in there... I'm sure that will look like shit.:torsten_violent-smi

 

[Tim Morten]

The bottom line should obviously be which camera produces better looking negatives. We'll have to wait to see an objective test, negative to negative, to judge. It's possible that Arri has an edge or that Red has an edge, but without looking at the digital negatives we just don't know.

Monitor output matters, and if this really is an "apples to apples" comparison, it would indicate an issue. HOWEVER, we don't know at this point if it is "apples to apples". If it does turn out to be a monitoring issue, perhaps there is a way to encourage correct monitor path configuration in software (a start-up calibration test to reveal problems, or something of that nature) to guard against others making the same mistake...

Is this video an example of using viral marketing to shill for Arri? I give the benefit of a doubt... that would seem underhanded (but not impossible these days). Either way, this is a respected DP, and what he has to say will be listened to.

 

[Álex Montoya]

But Michael, are the Alexa's pixels three times bigger so they can take three times the light?

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

right or wrong, I think more calculated testing is needed. But Rodney Charters does know what he is doing, and he championed the RED during its early release.

It stands to reason that Arri is not going to release a sub-par product. They are not stupid and they know what RED is doing. They will need something besides their good name to justify the expense of a camera that, on a percentage basis, is substantially more expensive than the MX'ed RED ONE against which it is being compared. Jim has already stated that they've found a way to pull more data from the MX sensor, so let's see how that measures up, once it is fully enabled in EPIC.

No need to get too worked, we're in the early innings of the game.

 

[Dustin Cross]

Alexa is ment to record high quality images out SDI.

Red is ment to view low quality images out the SDI.

The problem is, every digital camera except Red has its best signal output via SDI. What you see on that monitor on set is what you get and Red doesn't compete in that competition.

I would prefer red to have an SD video tape, so I didn't have to tell people on set not to trust the image on the SDI monitor.


Dusty

 

[Subhadip Sen]

I'm not saying Rodney's test was scientific at all (clearly a real test needs to be done)... But it is possible that Alexa has more DR than Red-MX . After all Alexa does have less resolution and bigger pixels, correct ?

Look at Canon vs. Nikon. The D3 & D3s are the DR/Lowlight kings (at the expense of resolution).

Wouldn't these principles hold true in the Red vs Alexa discussion ?

The other thing, the very fact that Red-MX ($17,500 + $5,000 sensor upgrade) is being compared to Arri Alexa ($60K-70K) speaks loudly... it's kind of a compliment.
Red is just fine...

Yes, it could hold true. Pixel size is not everything, but when they are as significantly bigger as in the Alexa, it will surely count for something.

The Canon vs Nikon comparison makes sense. Fortunately, the Alexa is well past the “good enough” level, which is roughly 2K. The Nikon’s 720p (resolves to SD) and its clunky codec are simply too much of a downside. Alexa’s ~3K RAW or ProRes 4444 1080p is “good enough”.

Finally, I am not sure Jim would be pleased if the consolation is “But the RED is cheaper, so we can accept it losing out to Alexa”. He has always set out to make THE best camera and make it available to as large a userbase as possible.

 

[Tim Morten]

I deleted my own message. It said nothing of importance, but I didn't want to get involved in this discussion. All I can say is that I think (and have always thought) choice is good, and having a few good digital cinema cameras out there benefits us all.

Well said, and I can definitely understand not wanting to get sucked into the debate.

I'm sure everyone would love to know your opinion given hands-on experience that few have had (even if it isn't necessarily an endorsement for one choice or the other)... but obviously no worries if you prefer to stay out of it.

Best,
Tim

 

[Bill Anderson]

Chris, of course choice is good, we just want to know what the hell it is we're choosing. We must be sure that the choices are investigated and presented honestly and impartially. We want to know that white doesn't turn out to be black.

 

[Michael Totten]

But Michael, are the Alexa's pixels three times bigger so they can take three times the light?

I really don't know how much bigger Alexa's pixels are... I just know (have read) that they are indeed bigger & most of the time this means more light gets through & there's a little more range.

 

[Laco Zamba]

I totally agree

Alexa is ment to record high quality images out SDI.

Red is ment to view low quality images out the SDI.

The problem is, every digital camera except Red has its best signal output via SDI. What you see on that monitor on set is what you get and Red doesn't compete in that competition.

I would prefer red to have an SD video tape, so I didn't have to tell people on set not to trust the image on the SDI monitor.


Dusty

 

[Tim Morten]

I really don't know how much bigger Alexa's pixels are... I just know (have read) that they are indeed bigger & most of the time this means more light gets through.

Hopefully needless to say, but sensitivity is not as simple as comparing the size of photosites...

 

[Michael Totten]

Hopefully needless to say, but sensitivity is not as simple as comparing the size of photosites...

Absolutely true, and I didn't mean to imply it was that simple.

I'm just saying that, generally speaking, (at least with professional or semi-professional still cameras) the sensors with bigger photosites have been able to produce cleaner images at higher ISO's with more range. There are exceptions of course.. but I'm assuming these basic principles are true in the Red-MX vs. Alexa discussion.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Finally, I am not sure Jim would be pleased if the consolation is “But the RED is cheaper, so we can accept it losing out to Alexa”. He has always set out to make THE best camera and make it available to as large a userbase as possible.

There are going to be many factors going into making decisions. EPIC-X will liberate the form factor in a way that neither RED ONE nor the Alexa does. There will be feature sets in both cameras that will appeal to different user bases - the ability to shoot in ProRes without transcoding is already one in play for Alexa...let's hope that kicks RED into producing a competitive Pro Res module. Price point will always be a factor. The "super secret" HDR mode...bring all the chips to the center of the table.

I want these ponies to push each other in the race to deliver us the best possible cameras at great price points. I don't think there will be any "losing out" - just a bunch of discussion, differing opinions, evolving technologies and a race to deliver. Same as it ever was. RED ONE MXed had a tiny window in there where it seemed to own the space, but the game is back on. Let the shakedown begin.

I trust RED will continue to do great things in this space...they not only built a great, affordable camera, they also destroyed the business model of withholding functionality. Still early innings....

 

[Jay Gannon]

I said it on the Vimeo post, their both great cameras, some people will choose RED some will choose Arri, both can make great pictures and their quite closely matched in everything except resolution. Alexa may be better in some situations, MX may be better in others.