Rodney Charters, ASC - RED ONE, Canon 7D and 5D MkII side by side

[jimhare]

Being a compressionist for the last decade I can tell you that you want to start with the most pristine image possible.

For this reason, a muddy original will fare far worse than a clean one.

My guess is taking this to a blu ray master will put Red further ahead.

I am also a huge fan of oversampling. Even if my project is going to DVD, I shoot everything at 4k. Makes a difference, even when downsized that far.

 

[Bryce O]

If you want to make a true comparison then take the Red footage and compress it using h.264 to blu ray standards and compare it to the Canon similarly compressed, then you can talk about relative detail levels and even compare stills.

Red will still have more detail... Down sampling will always result in higher quality than capturing at the delivery size.

 

[James Brundige]

T
Given the choice, would we prefer to grade RED ONE footage over the Canon H.264? - you bet! .... but given the choice, we'd also prefer to grade Sony F35, Genesis and Arri D21 over the RED any day.

Neil

Can you be more specific about the differences you experience?

 

[James Brundige]

On the other hand, if you think the 5D2 aliasing is devil spawn sent to earth by Lucifer himself to torment us into clawing our eyes out, then you might hate the 5D2 with the passion of a thousand burning suns.

.

real poetry .. lol

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I think the HH issues might be from having to hold the camera with your wrist in a vertical position which puts a lot more strain on your wrist. As you get tired you start to shake. Little $600 cameras let you hold it with your wrist horizontal putting the strain on your arm, which is far more capable of handling the stress. The little cameras are also far lighter once you add a big lens.

Yup, agreed. Another key factor is that in SLR HH you have the weight center distributed over two hands, unlike shoulder setups or right hand holding (small cameras), which makes a HH circus because of 3x3 axis vibrations. This is the most important SRL style camera defect for HH motion imaging and the reason you can't just grab the DSLR and shoot video the way you can with small video cameras. Also, many times most of the weight is in the lens and using same hand for carrying and balancing the camera plus controlling the lens is a no go.
A while back I suggested a solution that might help in HH with DSMC's in compact mode - if handle could both rotate and slide down the lens on a side mounted rail.

My point about the price was that you can in fact get the HH issue taken care of, and it wouldn't slow you down either. You would have several rigs waiting to just pop in the camera and go. But if you are so concerned with switching support then you are talking about other issues. In that case I would pick one type of support and leave it configured like so. Perhaps that would be some sort of shoulder mount to compare it to what you would get with other cameras without adding different support solutions. A very decent shoulder rig and a 7D would still be far less than a Red One body, and for the Red you still need a Mantis or something else. I think it ends up being more about trading light the weight of a properly outfitted 7D rig vs. the far lower jello present on a Red One.

Very valid points, IMO.

I was thinking from another perspective - building a camera from ground up, where it makes more sense making the camera less dependent on rigs (to an extent) by optimizing its design.

 

[Justin Anderson]

Got this from another forum:

Fast shutter speeds probably help the 5D. It doesn't handle motion blur very well, the codec falls apart.

How's the 7D in this regard?

 

[Roberto B]

Here is a 100% crop from the 5D2 footage:



In the following image, I took the crop and resized that down to 360p, then up-rezzed it back to 1080p. 360p is 0.6 "K", which is 7 times less than "4K", 9 times less megapixels than 1080p, and even 50% *less* megapixels than Standard Definition DVD.



Looks pretty similar. That image had such little resolution that even Standard Definition is overkill.

What happens when we do the same thing with the RED ONE footage of the same scene? First the 1080p crop:



And here it is after resizing to 360p and back up to 1080p:



This time, the loss is striking. Clearly, the RED ONE shot had 2.1 megapixels of real detail in a 2.1 MP file. Whereas the 5D2 shot had about 0.23 MP of real detail in a 2.1 MP file.

man.. how can you compare apples to oranges?
don't you see the 5D2 shot is out of focus?

even the original vimeo poster has recognized it.
me thinks you're reading the wrong white papers.. lol

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

man.. how can you compare apples to oranges?
don't you see the 5D2 shot is out of focus?

even the original vimeo poster has recognized it.
me thinks you're reading the wrong white papers.. lol

Robert B,

it's not shot out of focus and it's about unsharp picture that looks out of focus that you get when Canon scan and compress video.

You can also click, make a real still picture during video recording in a size you customized before and get exact picture sharpness and focus (if you are in).

 

[Roberto B]

it's not what the man says

http://vimeo.com/7559839

"That was my fault, in editing I should have used another shot. They're were plenty in focus."

 

[Daniel Browning]

don't you see the 5D2 shot is out of focus?

Of course. That's the point. The only time you get an image free of nasty artifacts is when the shot is completely blurry and low-res.

If there were other A/B comparisons of the RED ONE/5D2 where the 5D2 was in correct focus, then I would have criticized the vomit-inducing artifacts instead of resolution.

 

[Roberto B]

i see your point but this is not like your friend alan roberts proclaims

you can get sharpness w/out aliasing on 5D2 too.. maybe knowing how to play w/ dof.. ok & something more ehehehehe no less

a camera is a tool.. not a profession of faith & oath of fidelity.. except to what you get

________________________________________________


vancouver on 720 60p 7d by Brandon Moza

http://www.vimeo.com/7764570

wasn't this pretty impractical because of aliasing? :coolgleamA: :icon_bs:

 

[Bill Strehl]

we're going to repeat the RED/Canon Intercut Reel using Zeiss Master Primes .... be interesting to see what a decent piece of glass does for both cameras.

Thanks to you, Rodney, et al for doing this. As a novice, I feel like I am going to film school for free. I am glad that people are picking things apart as it helps me to learn, and I look forward to you doing more tests and to more nitpicking.

I agree with those who say the average person won't notice "something" that a trained professional would see if it is in their field. I learned this lesson many years ago when I was helping to run a convention for jazz educators in New Orleans. The last night I took two guys who worked with me to K-Paul's for a great dinner, and afterwords, walked them down Bourbon Street for the first time. As I enjoyed the music coming through the open doors, and pointed out historic points of interest, I could see them cringing. When I asked what was wrong, they told me they couldn't believe how much terrible music was being played at the packed bars. At that moment, they were the only two people I could see not enjoying themselves. I guess that's the price you pay for being a tenured music professor!

 

[Bill Strehl]

One conclusion might be that it's fun and strangely satisfying to be the disruptor. It's not fun to be the disrupted.

Amen! I always felt that being a rogue was the way to rise above the clutter, but with sister Sarah using it now, I may have to find a new word.

 

[Charles X]

we're going to repeat the RED/Canon Intercut Reel using Zeiss Master Primes .... be interesting to see what a decent piece of glass does for both cameras.

fantastic! cant wait to see the results! - make sure you do some low lighting tests.

Maybe even throw in some 1dmkIV footage as well !

 

[Neil W. Smith]

Can-Do Film Festival and Competition

Can-Do Film Festival and Competition

While we're all waiting with bated breath for the arrival of Scarlet, I thought it'd be fun to launch the Can-Do Film Competition for all you RedHeads out there with an EOS 5D Mk II or EOS 7D cameras (and the soon to ship EOS 1D Mk IV).... as soon as Scarlet arrives we'll relaunch the Can-Do with a Scarlet section .... nothing like a bit of healthy competition between Scarleteers and Canoneers to see who can make the best short movie.

Enjoy and have fun:

http://www.can-dofilmfest.com/

Neil

P.S. Sanjin .... no cheating and submitting a RED/7D Intercut short of cute Viennese girls ... Canon only .... I'll be watching closely, dude.