Setting up the magazine or completely reloading.

[Alex Carr]

Ive noticed a trick that allows the ONset DAM to reload the magazine and just hand a drive and start recording. I've tested it several times and all the footage looks good, It gives the camera a break from having to constantly re-format Red Drives when they don't necessarily need to be. Plus it saves 2 minutes while not having to format a magazine.

First, Delete the entire .RDM folder. (After properly Backed up on at least 3 drives.) Remember to empty the trash before you eject, or the camera wont see the Drive as Empty.

Then Change the Name of the Red drive to the Next Reel #, ie: A064 becomes A065.

Then open the Magazine.Profile, The first line of text says Reel# "64" change it to "65" Or whatever the next 'advanced' reel becomes.

Also, Open the dynamic magazine.profile, change the Edgecode.

Heres how to reset Edgecode, i always return it to 01:00:00:00. On this show I'm working on as DAM, we dont use edgecode for any reason as of yet. Other than the TC on that particular Reel, So I find it useful to reset it. Change the timecode and save the file to the root of the RedDrive.

<RedParameters>
<Profile>
<Type>magdynamic</Type>
<Version>1.0</Version>
</Profile>
<Param name="MEDIA.DIGMAG.NEXT_EDGECODE" type="text" value="01:03:18:10" />
</RedParameters>

It can be very useful when you are shooting fast and just handing off Drives. Idont like it when Camera Dept. records more than 20-30 minutes on a RedDrive. So handing off a fresh Drive and start Recording a few seconds later can be handy. I can also Change the files and reload the Magazine in about 30 seconds, then hand it off to 2nd AC.

 

[JohnLands]

backed up on 3 drives? Thats alot of money......

 

[Deanan]

The more backups the better.

However, recording, erasing and recording again with formatting is a very very very bad idea. Each time you do that you are forcing fragmentation on the filesystem.

Please ALWAYS reformat before recording on a new mag and never erase anything on a mag unless you intend to reformat.

 

[RyanKunkleman]

I tend to agree with deanan. we keep all our drives in the shot state untill they are backed up and confirmed off-site.

the idea of pre-numbering the drives before they get to camera is interesting. I might work out a script that does this for you without having to erase the previous drive.

 

[Mike Prevette]

IT'S YOUR MAG! DO NOT OPEN IT AND F$CK AROUND WITH THINGS! You wouldn't open a 435 mag and poke around at the negative would you? IMHO you should never mess with a Camera systems internal file structure period. Your just playing with fire.

 

[Steve Freebairn]

There is a much better way of doing this, even though I'd love a computer app that would do what is being suggested (as long as it didn't cause problems).

What I do when I don't want to have the down time of an on set reformat is I preformat on the camera the next several reels, then when I want to switch out, the new drive is just plugged in and it's ready to go, this works especially well with the CF cards because I can preformat so many of them so quickly.

 

[Alex Carr]

Apples and Oranges my friend, Since when is 35mm a digital format? Anyone care to take advantage of our age in Technology or not?!? Of course I wouldn't open a 435 mag, but am I working with a 435? DIGITAL CINEMA!!!!! I dont think you guys understand whats going on, the red camera is a computer with a camera on the side. It stresses the computer by constantly reformatting. The camera cant zero that disk so its just as safe doing it on the computer as it is deleting clips from the camera. Its a slow computer inside the Red camera. Once I figure out the Filesystem completely I'm sure I can run a linux distro that will format F32 and copy the .profile files onto it, reloaded and ready to go. People were breaking rules with this camera already, why not take it to the next level.

This is the first part in understanding how the camera works, by understanding the operating system the red camera uses. If you dont want to understand then you'll miss out on the jobs, and customization that REAL productions are using. This computer inside Red One is not fast enough to zero the disk, so it is not doing any more work or anything different than erasing clips on the computer. If zeroing takes an hour on my computer do you really think the red camera can do it in 2 minutes? There is no difference, the Drive has recorded footage all ok. And fragmenting still occurs because your not zeroing the disk!!!! Over time the Red camera will fragment the drive just the same as the Macbook will, neither units are zeroing out, so fragmentation is still an issue in both areas. Even if you do it right on the camera, your creating the same thing you are trying to avoid. You only feel safer.

Believe me two text files is beyond simple for anyone, its not messing with anything. Once you understand how the camera works, why not take advantage of it? Seriously? This camera creates technicians who have a wide variety of skills, tricks and risks, to avoid mistakes and speed up the process. The Red camera and its .profile text files are very simple. When changing a battery you have to power down, reboot, re-jamsync, then reformat the Drive. all of which takes time where the production cant see the image on the monitor. Art Dept cant arrange the shot, make-up cant check the actors, Lighting cant even start to adjust lights, Director cant make decisions. Anything to save time is going to keep this camera On-set and in Production.

FYI, I do not do this for CF cards. Its takes 3 seconds to format a card. There is no advantage. However the Red Drive I dislike anyway. And anything to make it more Functional is truly an advantage.

After 10 days of shooting I have lost no clips and shot over 1.3 TB. I offload the cards over a 1TB e-sata then copy to a second 1TB esata, then to a third 1TB Firewire 800 or 400 that goes to post House every night.

 

[JohnLands]

I have a solution... Get a battery system that allows you not to power down. Problem solved. That has been my solution on every set and it is much more cost effective and "safe"

 

[Damon Meledones]

This computer inside Red One is not fast enough to zero the disk, so it is not doing any more work or anything different than erasing clips on the computer. If zeroing takes an hour on my computer do you really think the red camera can do it in 2 minutes? There is no difference, the Drive has recorded footage all ok. And fragmenting still occurs because your not zeroing the disk!!!! Over time the Red camera will fragment the drive just the same as the Macbook will, neither units are zeroing out, so fragmentation is still an issue in both areas. Even if you do it right on the camera, your creating the same thing you are trying to avoid. You only feel safer.

Some of the statements you make here are not entirely correct. Wiping an entire disk with zeros is not required to prevent fragmentation. Formatting the magazine in camera has a number of advantages over simply deleting the clips with a computer. The FAT32 filesystem which is used by the camera is very primitive, and fragments quite easily. Formatting insures that:
(a) The magazine is totally empty and free of any computer created files (spotlight, trashes, recycle bin, etc)
(b) The filesystem structure on the magazine is fully compatible with the camera.
(c) The free space is completely un-fragmented, and the write start mark is properly placed.

Additionally, while the camera does need to be up for the departments to make their final checks, and to give them the initial framing, it is not necessary for them to work at all. Filmmaking has been taking place for years prior to video assist and on-set monitors allowing everyone to see "through" the camera at once. Departments didn't stand around waiting for their key's turn looking through the viewfinder in order to continue working. I have yet to have the camera slow a production down by more than an ill-timed battery change. Even formatting a RED DRIVE only takes around 30 seconds. If future firmware versions replace the full screen formatting message with one in the magazine's status area, this should become a non-issue (do you hear that RED?).

 

[Daniel García]

If zeroing takes an hour on my computer do you really think the red camera can do it in 2 minutes? There is no difference, the Drive has recorded footage all ok. And fragmenting still occurs because your not zeroing the disk!!!!

Hey you found some nice tricks my friend, but you got those bits wrong. When the camera formats the drive, it doesn't need to overwrite all the clusters with zeros... it just needs to reset the File Allocation Table at the beggining of the disk, mark all the space as free, and create the propietary folder structure. The old data remains on the hard disk clusters, but it is marked as free space, so the camera will overwrite them and write continous files... hence the lack of fragmentation. That's how hard disk have always worked, at least FAT32.

It's very nice to dig inside the systems and know them inside out so you can pull some special tricks, such as forcing the reel number as you showed. But it's dangerous to get those facts wrong and get to wrong conclusions... and then go and share them among the less educated. Be careful.

It still would be nice if red published as much as possible about the file structure so that we can develop helper utilities and/or solve problems when things go wrong.

 

[Alex Carr]

The dept Heads need to have Monitor up during final Checks, If the camera is formatting from the last setup or we go in to a reverse and need to swap Drives. It happens, everyday.

The RedDrive takes almost two minutes, I've watched them myself at least 5 times a day. I'm quite sure it takes more than 3o seconds. Ive watched a advanced reel not get Forced to the right number and piss of the director waiting for the camera to finish formatting, taking almost 4 minutes to do it twice.

I never get the information wrong because I have double checks to ensure the last reel #, The AC's dont always remember or need a confirmation from me or Scripty anyway. I'm directly looking at the files.

I think its quite possible to format as fat32 on a Mac and then add the mag.profile files again onto the disc. Its worth a test. But if it does do as I state then this is an advantage. And can be reformatted, easily.

I've done tests and the footage is fine throughout all Post, Crimson works. FCP transfer works. RedCine works... etc...

I'm not talking about never formatting the drive, I'm stating that you can keep Production moving with recording Long takes and Dumping after 30 minutes is on the drive or before we move to a new scene. And Saving time while doing it. I format the drives every morning from the camera, I have some tests left to run before I bring the technique to Camera Dept. for Production use.

I offer suggestions, and I want to see what you people think. Most of you dont care the advantages or learning beyond a cute interface of a camera. I wont stop here, and as things become more available things will become more customizable. So I will show my experiences.

 

[Alex Carr]

Hey you found some nice tricks my friend, but you got those bits wrong. When the camera formats the drive, it doesn't need to overwrite all the clusters with zeros... it just needs to reset the File Allocation Table at the beggining of the disk, mark all the space as free, and create the propietary folder structure. The old data remains on the hard disk clusters, but it is marked as free space, so the camera will overwrite them and write continous files... hence the lack of fragmentation. That's how hard disk have always worked, at least FAT32.

Thats why it doesnt matter if you just delete the clips from the mag, i dont think you need to reformat from the camera to get the same effect.

 

[Michael Morlan]

I've been thinking of actually keeping copies of those magazine profile files on my PC DIT station (one for each mag up to 99, for instance) then reformatting the RED Drive and dumping the next magazine's files onto it.

I'll try that when I return from my vacation next week.

Michael

 

[Mike Prevette]

I'm keenly aware of the difference between a 435 and Red in my example. However my point was your manipulating the recording path of the system in an unsupported way.

That's fine for personal knowledge, but on someone else's set with someone else's money there is no room for error. You only get one chance in this business, and if your hackjob fucks up even 4 minuted of footage on a $250,000 spot your never going to work again.

Even though the Red is "just" a embedded Linux system, doesn't mean there isn't some trickery going on that's not readily apparent. The minute or two on set to reformat a drive is totally justified in terms of data security.

If your on a set that is going to have a very fast shoot cycle (kids, puppies, explosions, elephants, etc) pre-format the drives. Most people seem to be swapping drives during scene changes already so I don't see the risk as worth it.

 

[Mike Prevette]

Don't mean to sound harsh, I've been a "void the warranty" kind of guy my whole life. This just sounds a little too risky to be done repeatedly or by hand. The more steps you add to any process the greater the chance of error becomes.

 

[Alex Carr]

Thats why I always didnt like the whole concept of doing it from the computer. Then I realized how long Camera was waiting. I have to delete the clips off the card before I hand them a Card, so when they re-format the card the camera doesn't say 'there are x clips on this reel' are you sure? instead there are no clips so they are assured they can reformat. We have created checks at every hand off and unload so that data is not mixed up.

1. Cards are numbered, and must be recorded on in a sequential order. 1, first, 2 next, 3 and so on...

2. When a Mag is full, orange tape is put on the back. Green for B Camera, and A and B camera never use each other cards. They only share the two drives.

3. Copy to 3 Drives, then delete .RDM folder from Magazine. I use only aFW800 CF reader and esata drives.

3. Camera Dept knows the data is long gone and ready to re-use If the warngin 'you have clips' doesnt come up.

This particular workflow is working for Drives only and on a 1 mil TV show. We are shooting very fast, i wont let them fill the RedDrive up, and I scrub every single shot after it comes from the camera. I've lost no clips after 10 days, other than shots lost while recording and the battery died.

 

[RyanKunkleman]

one thing ive been doing with the reddrive (sounds like you are shooting more footage than us currently) i let them shoot till lunch copy the drive over lunch and hand it back with all the footage still on it and let them continue.

reasons for doing this: our bond company requires that our footage be backed up in two off-site locations (on of which is New Zealand) before we can format the neg so having enough for the turnaround we have 26 drives and 120 cards for two units. putting the drive back on the camera after its been copied has allowed us a bit more time. we also do split rushes so that we get one of our offsite backups done twice a day.

i could never recommend that someone should shoot/copy/reformat/reuse media all in one shoot day.

The cost of additional media vs the cost of reshooting a morning/day is NOT worth the risk.

as far as pre-formatting on the computer goes. I would never want to be responsible for any fcuk up. Using unsupported methods on new technology just doesnt go over very well with producers when things go wrong.

I do like the idea of handing them a roll that has A234 written on it with a camera sheet labeled the same and letting them go for it. i just done know if everything else is stable enough that i would feel comfortable do that on a big show.

(I ran a OSx86 box myself for a while. , i really hope thats not what you are using onset, unsupported methods on an unsupported system = disaster)

 

[Damon Meledones]

Thats why it doesnt matter if you just delete the clips from the mag, i dont think you need to reformat from the camera to get the same effect.

With FAT32 it is critical that the write-start marker be moved to the beginning of the un-fragmented free space. This does not automatically happen, when erasing the clips from the media. Handing off a drive with a write-start marker in the middle, or worse yet, near the end of the (now) free space is really inviting fragmentation.

As I said earlier, once RED adjusts the format status so that it is not full screen, formatting on camera will be even less of an issue. I know it feels like a long time, but I have never had a RED Drive take longer than about 45 seconds to format on the camera. I also swap batteries early and often when it won't affect the production schedule, and won't let the camera roll with less than about 5%, except in extreme circumstances.

I also use the "if it warns about clips when formatting, send the card back" method, however I have written a droplet script that renames the log and profile files and ejects the media to do this. With these files renamed, the camera sees the media as unformatted, but by not deleting any clips using the computer, the potential for human or computer error is reduced. An official RED utility for media formatting and meta-data prep would be great, similar to Panny's P2 Card Formatter.

 

[Michael Morlan]

Actually, I have been DIT with my camera package on several commercial spots these last few weeks and I have yet to get in the way of production when swapping/formatting a drive. There are many opportunities, even on a fast moving set, where camera is idle while a new setup is going on. Battery changes on the other hand...

Michael

 

[Brook Willard]

When done properly, drive formatting and battery swaps can happen invisibly.

That said, a workaround is not a solution. There needs to be a way to properly reformat and increment a magazine on a Mac. Deanan, if merely modifying the ID files on a magazine may cause fragmentation issues, what can I do to avoid that? It can't be more than a few thousand lines of code to write a little applet that will "properly" format a drive on a Mac to prevent me from having to do it at the camera. Is it possible for you to reveal specifically what happens during the on-camera reformatting so that we can duplicate it with a third-party applet?