Resolution, IBC and 4K +

[Alex Kiritz]

Someone showed you a 5k iMac/cinema display being released tomorrow? Cool

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

And the Varicam's DVCProHD recording wasn't even full 720p (1280x720) but 960x720. Similarly, the HDCAM that Sony was using was not 1920x1080. Sony kept very quiet about HDCAM being 1440x1080 for quite a while and it was only when I was doing a project with Panavision recording on HDCAM did I find out.

Graeme

That's why they had to come out with the HDCAM SoRry format.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

It's equipped with HDMI v1.3a

And only the "slim" ones have v1.3a. All the earlier "fatty" ones have v1.2.

4K Blu-Ray is tentatively finalized

This is odd. I talked to an industry insider a few months ago and he said there's been no movement towards 4K Blu-ray at the BDA at all. I'm trying to get information on the latest developments.

 

[Ryan Koo]

The ARRI thing is hilarious. Left hand, meet right hand.

However, speaking of cognitive dissonance...

iPads are not "blowing past" 2K. The most recent iPad, with its gorgeous (not just in terms of resolution but also color gamut) Retina display is 2.0000000000000K. 2048 pixels wide. I mean I guess it has a few extra pixels in height but as far as video aspect ratios are concerned none of us are using those. I wouldn't say this is "blowing past."

If the Playstation 4 is a harbinger of all kinds of 4K content, how is it that the biggest Playstation 3 games today aren't even close to 1080p? Most of them are upscaling from the neighborhood of 600p because the processor can't handle higher resolutions and maintain a good frame rate. Sure the PS4 will be much higher-powered, but the games are also going to be more demanding and audiences will want those games to be as graphically intense at 1080p as possible -- which would realistically mean that to get to a "true" 4K you'd have to turn options off. Also will the Playstation 4 bring with it 4K Blu-rays? (I'm asking, I genuinely don't know). Will the Playstation Store sell a 4K movie download? I can only imagine what they'll price that at, given their current movies are $20 to "own" a DRM'd HD file that you can't take onto most other devices.

I'm a believer in a future of 4K, I've seen a few RED 4K screenings and I happen to like my RED Scarlet (though I wish the mathematically possible 5K WS mode -- or any WS mode other than 1K, for that matter -- was enabled). But it's one thing to accuse another company of doing the cognitive dissonance dance (ARRI: "4K isn't important until we have a 4K camera!") while also doing the same dance (RED: "4K is here today look at all these examples of... screens, and cables, and TVs!"... that none of you own). Survey: how many of you have a method of watching 4K content in your home today? Of the ten cinemas near you, how many of them have 4K projectors/pipelines and are actually showing 4K content? The answer: basically none. I tried to see The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo in 4K, drove an extra half hour to watch it at a theater listed on Sony's 4K cinema website, and when I got there it was being projected in the small side theater... on film. Plenty of digital IMAX screens aren't even 4K, which is a travesty.

I'm looking forward to it. But it's not here. And to pretend otherwise is itself a perfect example of cognitive dissonance, because saying "here are several examples of ways to watch 4K content, it's here!" is to pretend there aren't hundreds of millions of displays out there that aren't going to be replaced for many years by anything 4K.

Don't take this the wrong way... I mean I guess you can delete this or whatever... but I'm on your side. I'm happy that my camera and productions are to a certain extent futureproof... but it's not like I'm actually expecting audiences to be able to see my feature in 4K. Both sides are engaging in plenty of doublethink. I guess that's called "marketing," though.

 

[Jarred Land]

The ARRI thing is hilarious. Left hand, meet right hand.

However, speaking of cognitive dissonance...

iPads are not "blowing past" 2K. The most recent iPad, with its gorgeous (not just in terms of resolution but also color gamut) Retina display is 2.0000000000000K. 2048 pixels wide. I mean I guess it has a few extra pixels in height but as far as video aspect ratios are concerned none of us are using those. I wouldn't say this is "blowing past."

I disagree.

DCI 2K is 2048 x 1080 which in terms of resolution is 2.2 million pixels. The new Ipad is 2048x1536, which is 3.1 million pixels. Which means the Ipad has 33% more pixels than 2K. Thats a pretty healthy jump. .. not " just a few extra pixels "

If the Playstation 4 is a harbinger of all kinds of 4K content, how is it that the biggest Playstation 3 games today aren't even close to 1080p? Most of them are upscaling from the neighborhood of 600p because the processor can't handle higher resolutions and maintain a good frame rate. Sure the PS4 will be much higher-powered, but the games are also going to be more demanding and audiences will want those games to be as graphically intense at 1080p as possible -- which would realistically mean that to get to a "true" 4K you'd have to turn options off. Also will the Playstation 4 bring with it 4K Blu-rays? (I'm asking, I genuinely don't know). Will the Playstation Store sell a 4K movie download? I can only imagine what they'll price that at, given their current movies are $20 to "own" a DRM'd HD file that you can't take onto most other devices.

Wrapping textures and rendering on the fly graphics for gameplay is alot different than just throwing out sequences of already rendered images. We are not talking about gameplay here... we are talking about watching normal videos.. which the Playstation dominates the market doing. It is the #1 playback device for netflix, along with the leading device for most other On demand services that are on it's menus.

doing the cognitive dissonance dance (ARRI: "4K isn't important until we have a 4K camera!") while also doing the same dance (RED: "4K is here today look at all these examples of... screens, and cables, and TVs!"... that none of you own). Survey: how many of you have a method of watching 4K content in your home today? Of the ten cinemas near you, how many of them have 4K projectors/pipelines and are actually showing 4K content? The answer: basically none. I tried to see The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo in 4K, drove an extra half hour to watch it at a theater listed on Sony's 4K cinema website, and when I got there it was being projected in the small side theater... on film. Plenty of digital IMAX screens aren't even 4K, which is a travesty.

Again.. you are going a bit sideways here. Its not about how many people own one, that wasn't the discussion. it is that you can finally go out and buy one.

As for how many 4K projectors are there in theaters.. "basically none?" Sony alone has installed more than 11,000 4K projectors in the US alone.. Which is 1/4 of the 40,000 screens both digital and analog.. That is just Sony. Christie and Barco both have been shipping 4K projectors for some time. And on top of that, Over half of the digital 3D screens in theaters in the US are 4K projectors of one make or another.

I'm looking forward to it. But it's not here. And to pretend otherwise is itself a perfect example of cognitive dissonance, because saying "here are several examples of ways to watch 4K content, it's here!" is to pretend there aren't hundreds of millions of displays out there that aren't going to be replaced for many years by anything 4K.

I think you need to read up on what cognitive dissonance actually means...

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Jarred, the facts you mention are very interesting. Maybe Red could produce a brochure/paper about 4k+, dealing with both the visual findings, as ARRI mentioned in their paper, and all the market facts, like iPad 3 - installation rate of 4k projectors, etc... Most of us know these things, but our customers don't, or they are not interested. People still claim that Red is not true 4k, and all kinds of bullshit.

And _too_ many are still claiming that 4k is a buzzword (I guess this comes from the ARRI Alexa marketing team?). A nice paper/brochure dealing with analytical findings and market facts would be very useful.

 

[brett ogden]

Off topic jarred

Before you said you needed Camp red to end then you could make more Videos, well i was wondering if we could have a update on how the video's are going =D

 

[L. Langer]

This is odd. I talked to an industry insider a few months ago and he said there's been no movement towards 4K Blu-ray at the BDA at all. I'm trying to get information on the latest developments.

Since I keep tabs on it all, I'll give it to you straight and simple....

1. h.264 may be used for initial disc titles if h.265 is not completed on schedule with hardware encoders in place. Same thing happened with Blu-Ray as it was originally MPEG-2 because there were already hardware encoders in place.

2. h.265 is not complete and hardware encoders need to be finalized. This may happen by the end of the year or sometime next year but everything points to early next year.

3. Multi-layer discs will be used. Probably triple-layer at first followed by quad-layer discs. For obvious reasons, h.265 will make it easier to roll back to discs with fewer layers to make replication smoother. Sony and Panasonic have to get their disc production lines working at above 95% yields before any format launch and the optical drive makers have to establish compatibility with existing drives or finalize new optical pickup designs to read the discs that go beyond dual-layer. Sony and others have intimated though not outright stated that the current drive tech should be fine with minimal firmware changes.

4. New HDMI spec is forthcoming for 4K to handle computers, consoles, and 4K video content with greater frame-rates. 1.4b is about to launch in the next few months but whatever 4K improvements there are are not being made public at this time though it seems to be more for the final generation of 1080p displays as it brings full 3D and higher FPS at that resolution.

5. BDA will use CES 2013 to present the format and demo it if current schedule holds but the format may not launch until the end of 2013 due to the pace of manufacturing and market factors which include 4K TVs from more companies to go with 4K broadcast infrastructure that is now being put into place by Sony and others who cater to that particular industry.

6. When the format is launched, Jarred Land will post something along the lines of "Meh. I've seen better.", someone will post "Oh really?", and his response will be "Heh heh heh." Six hours later, RED will announce the launch and availability of RED Ray..

That's it in a nutshell.

 

[brett ogden]

6. When the format is launched, Jarred Land will post something along the lines of "Meh. I've seen better.", someone will post "Oh really?", and his response will be "Heh heh heh." Six hours later, RED will announce the launch and availability of RED Ray..

That's it in a nutshell.

Oh really
ok T-6hrs =D

But that does help with the overall understanding

 

[Petri Teittinen]

That's it in a nutshell.

Very interesting. Thank you for posting, Mr. Langer.

 

[L. Langer]

Very interesting. Thank you for posting, Mr. Langer.

I also forgot to add that there is an extension of h.264 called EAVC4 that may yet end up going head-to-head against h.265 to become the codec of choice for broadcast use and may even end up being the final choice for 4K Blu-Ray since it outperforms h.265 based on current information.

 

[Yannick Sadler]

Arri 4K+ document, page 26:

"A very common rumour still circulates, which alleges that one could simply forget about all the effort of 4K because nobody can see it on the screen anyway."

Priceless!

Yet bizarrely this "rumour" is mostly circulated by... Arri!

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

If the Playstation 4 is a harbinger of all kinds of 4K content, how is it that the biggest Playstation 3 games today aren't even close to 1080p? Most of them are upscaling from the neighborhood of 600p because the processor can't handle higher resolutions and maintain a good frame rate. Sure the PS4 will be much higher-powered, but the games are also going to be more demanding and audiences will want those games to be as graphically intense at 1080p as possible -- which would realistically mean that to get to a "true" 4K you'd have to turn options off. Also will the Playstation 4 bring with it 4K Blu-rays? (I'm asking, I genuinely don't know). Will the Playstation Store sell a 4K movie download? I can only imagine what they'll price that at, given their current movies are $20 to "own" a DRM'd HD file that you can't take onto most other devices.

I read somewhere, that PS4K will be using the very latest x86 multi-core CPUs and powerful AMD gfx tech that supports multiple HD displays even today, not sure about the video games at 4K res, but I bet 4K for video / movies is very much a possibility. So, maybe PS4K will render pristine 1080p / 2K / 2,5K with all the demanding global anti-aliasing, very high level of textures and such things, and then upscale it to 4K display with a bit of sharpening.

 

[Ryan Koo]

I bet 4K for video / movies is very much a possibility.

Sure, but I'm not talking about possibilities. I'm talking about reality. Will there be an actual distribution format available to consumers? Disc, download, what? If 4K is going to be a serious standard then these are the important questions.

DCI 2K is 2048 x 1080 which in terms of resolution is 2.2 million pixels. The new Ipad is 2048x1536, which is 3.1 million pixels. Which means the Ipad has 33% more pixels than 2K. Thats a pretty healthy jump. .. not " just a few extra pixels "

Again, I'm talking about reality. The only way anyone is taking advantage of that "healthy jump" is if they release their content in 4:3. So in the last year, of the thousands of movies made, that would be what... The Artist? How many people are actually releasing content in 4:3? 1%? So that's 33% more pixels for 1% of productions. Not exactly earth-shattering. For all intents and purposes, ESPECIALLY as far as video is concerned, it's a 2K screen.

 

[Jarred Land]

Sure, but I'm not talking about possibilities. I'm talking about reality. Will there be an actual distribution format available to consumers? Disc, download, what? If 4K is going to be a serious standard then these are the important questions.



Again, I'm talking about reality. The only way anyone is taking advantage of that "healthy jump" is if they release their content in 4:3. So in the last year, of the thousands of movies made, that would be what... The Artist? How many people are actually releasing content in 4:3? 1%? So that's 33% more pixels for 1% of productions. Not exactly earth-shattering. For all intents and purposes, ESPECIALLY as far as video is concerned, it's a 2K screen.

Heh heh.. Ryan, I love you man.. your points are valid.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

I've said for years gamers will drive the 4k market, not really surprising. Being an avid gamer I welcome this, my first entry into non SD content was through games, the reason why I began caring about my monitors resolution and quality was because of gaming. Now did I even see a difference in quality, yes, was it more of a placebo effect than real world, most likely, but did I care... no(mostly because I did not understand what I was doing). I don't care if it is uprezed, down rezed, as long as there is some slight improvement I will get it... (man this is nerdy) but any advantage I can get in online gaming in clarity and resolution I will take it. I'm only getting older and my eye's weaker, as kids reaction times get faster and faster, I can use all the help I can get.

There may not be a way to deliver out of the box upon first shipment, but I don't care just having it in there makes me very happy that they are planning ahead, especially with the very long development cycles for consoles these days.

Now how this will translate to the average consumer who is only buying it as a media hub who knows. Though one thing i wish they would do, but they wont, is move away from optical discs where the actual crucial part with the information can be touched and scratched just seems like a very inefficient method of protection and almost like planned obsolescence, but that's my pet peeve.

4k gaming can't come soon enough, don't care if it takes developer years to take advantage of(as was said some games don't even utilize all of the current consoles capabilities), that's just how it goes with every system. Now delivery side of things and movies and television is a whole other issue, the first affordable 4k tv's like the early HD ones will be sub par that is to be expected, no issue there, could be a few years same thing no issue. It's going to be a mess of formats for the next while perhaps forever, not much you can do about but try and keep up or find where you are comfortable and only upgrade when it suits you.

have a good one!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Long gone are the days when consoles led the way on image quality. There is very little to no chance that next gen games will run @ 4k. Like Ryan mentioned, most games aren't even 720p yet. And the shader complexity has increased substantially since the 360/PS3. I would say you should take a look at a current 'good' $1k PC for what a console will be next year. I would say 2k is probably all you'll get @ 30fps. The good news is that you can reduce sampling accuracy at higher resolution and rely on adaptive AA algorithms to still increase edge detail so it's not a linear scale from 720p to 2k, there is a lot of overhead that can be ignored.

 

[Ryan Koo]

Heh heh.. Ryan, I love you man.. your points are valid.

I love you too man! Keep making those ever-improving cameras and save me a place in line for Dragon.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

I would love to go computer for all games but alas it will never be, was raised a FPS console gamer and will die one(goldeneye N64) can't explain it really nothing against computer FPS just not for me. Strategy and role playing games are a whole other deal(kings quest on an old IBM running DOS was my first computer game).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Quest:_Quest_for_the_Crown

True they are 720p but the reality is not in the numbers but the quality compared to previous games/consoles as the benchmark(xbox/ps1, N64/dreamcast,SNES/genisis,NES/master system,atari/intellivision, pong). I don't care if 4k only gives us 1080 games, or we just get actual 1080 games from 1080 content all I care about is an improvement in the quality. Sad thing is I only got a "true" 1080 TV in the past few years and I'm embarrassed at how bad my games looked before I made the move(SD big screen/projector... do not hold up) Now I want more, MORE! so perhaps that is my reason for this push, but I have to say outside of the video and film production industry gamers are the biggest group of pixel peepers I have met and are always looking for the latest and greatest.

 

[Jarred Land]

I've said for years gamers will drive the 4k market, not really surprising. Being an avid gamer I welcome this,

Hey Stephen did you see the demo Toshiba showed of Dirt 3 @ 4k? http://gamingbolt.com/4k-toshiba-tv-shows-dirt-3-running-at-extreme-resolution-video