RED's push forward despite strong legacy cameras

[Zack Birlew]

Hi, everybody, I've been thinking about the current state of cameras and RED's legacy cameras on the used market and I can't help but think that RED is making a big mistake by letting their previous cameras get old. It's been discussed many times across the forums but the key factor to bringing older RED cameras up to modern use instead of fading into the junk pile is their storage media. Since all the RED cameras up to this point, save the RED Raven, have been modular, what is keeping RED from introducing a legacy CFExpress media module unit for all of its legacy cameras?

Many have said firmware is the issue but why not have it all be emulated and controlled within the side module itself (ie. RED One MX sees one 512GB CFExpress as two 256GB or four 128GB RED 1.8" SSDs [assuming such emulation is even necessary])? All that would be needed for maintenance is perhaps a USB port on the module for doing updates for the module's internal board itself should incompatibilities or bugs be discovered. If CFExpress has proven to be a suitable storage medium for current RED cameras then it should be able to handle all the previous models and by making a new side module, RED doesn't have to support the outdated cameras they're used in, they'll only have to provide some support for the module until the bugs and issues get ironed out for the most part.

A move like this would extend the life and usefulness of legacy RED cameras and also tie into their newer camera systems that use CFExpress, making for a much broader adoption range of still very useful 4K, 5K, 6K, and, once DSMC2 fades out, 8K cameras.

 

[Phil Holland]

CFexpress will require new boards, hardware, etc. That's not taking into account the time to code, test, and all that. It's not SATA based and not as easy as just introducing a new side module in this case. Would likely be time consuming and costly to do all of that as well as the needed power requirements. Internals of the camera would need to updated. Not exactly the easiest thing to do when you're adding technology that didn't exist to systems that existed prior. But that shouldn't be where your focus is because there's nothing to gain there as the hardware doesn't take advantage of the increased data rates and all that.

I'll let the RED One and even DSMC argument fall by the wayside, because supporting cameras over a decade old is nearly impossible to do from a parts and servicing perspective. Simple fixes and repairs are manageable, which is why you also see 3rd party repair services that have sprouted up for all older cameras.

DSMC2 however still has years left in it especially in the face of modern digital cinema camera competition from a feature and image quality perspective and it's still supported in terms of repair. That won't go on forever.

All of the legacy cameras hold up pretty well overall in modern times, but in particular any of the DSMC2 Unified models are of extreme value to performance ratio on the used market given the world of $90K cameras that do about as much as Monstro does.

RED and every other manufacturer isn't making a mistake by not supporting older cameras. All manufacturers must develop and support newer systems to remain competitive in the consumer, prosumer, and professional market. You'll always have a generation back on support usually until the time comes when it's not cost effective or reasonably possible to support the older models when it comes to code, hardware, and service.

Myopic focus on media, whether it's 3rd party or not, isn't exactly what drives the industry and market at all. RED switched over to "mass market" standards with DSMC3, which has it's pros and cons in my mind, but certainly is taking advantage of the increased data rates found in higher end CFexpress media.

It's 2022 and you are right about strong legacy cameras. There's still people in the world working with RED Ones somehow. DSMC and DSMC2 were very, very popular, so used hardware is a whole different ballgame when it comes to accessories and media. I haven't had a Mini-Mag die on me yet either and in that specific case there is an approved 3rd party option that will extend that media type.

Towards the modern production life though, CFexpress has been wonderful from a workflow perspective. Fast offloads are a joy if you have the hardware to get the most out of that. I just dumped a full 4TB mag and was moderately blown away by that via a TB3 reader and NVME RAID.

 

[Michael Hastings]

"Obsolescence obsolete" isn't/wasn't obsolete and it never was reasonable to believe that was much more than marketing puffery. The only thing that came close was the RedONe - DSMC trade-in.

The only way obsolescence becomes obsolete is when the data captured is greater than human perception i.e. when audio recording gets to 32bit 192k it's well beyond what humans can hear so won't ever be obsolete unless we evolve better hearing.

With photo/video we won't get there until satellites are photographing ants because there is always a bigger canvas (sides of buildings?) or desire to blow up for cropping or seeing minute details or better dynamic range. We are there for "most" practical purposes even at relatively low cost but not for extreme edge cases so evolution will continue for a while yet. But cost vs quality ratio will continue to get better and RED will have quite enough work just to keep up much less enhance old cameras.

 

[Mark Chang]

Got the Epic-M DSMC1 when it first came out - now a Dragon 6k, bought a Gemini DSMC2 only a couple of years ago and I'm absolutely in love with them and both their output - they are so damn good. As an owner and operator of Gemini and Dragon 6k I'm planning on them being my A and B camera for a very very long time. It's is quite worrying that if/when my Red-mini mags fail and I won't be able to get anymore and these fully functional cameras will be just sitting on a shelf collecting dust. IMO investing in DSMC3 shouldn't be the only answer for a media storage problem other than a Kippertie before they stop selling. I must say I am worried and I hope I'm wrong in this, I would be very hesitant in staying with RED if there is no media storage solution. I want to use these cameras for a very long time.

 

[Kristin Stewart]

It's is quite worrying that if/when my Red-mini mags fail and I won't be able to get anymore and these fully functional cameras will be just sitting on a shelf collecting dust. IMO investing in DSMC3 shouldn't be the only answer for a media storage problem other than a Kippertie before they stop selling. I must say I am worried and I hope I'm wrong in this, I would be very hesitant in staying with RED if there is no media storage solution. I want to use these cameras for a very long time.

You're not the only one. Red previous owners are always going to be left in the dust one day or another. The only solution : renting instead of owning. And in this case, it's better to rent an Arri.

I still don't understand why Red didn't drop prices on Red media, especially knowing the fact that it's just an enclosed OEM SSD. They even stopped selling the 960GB Mini Mag version. They should offer affordable DSMC 1 and 2 media, and something for the Red One too.

In Europe there are laws against obsolescence made in purpose by manufacturers, but I guess Red is a too small company to fear anything. Apple is more the target for this kind of issues

 

[Audy Erel]

+1
RED Mini Mag --> CFExpress adapter.
Yes, please!! :001_tt1:

 

[Luka Sanader]

Red should help us DSMC2 owners by liberalizing media in and solving firmware issuers in first place.
I am sure that many issues DSMC2 has could be rectified with new Firmware and i am convinced that bottle neck of the DSMC2 Unified is not the internal computer but rather this poor media.
Simply making a new CFexpress side module or integratinf new WiFi controle of Komodo in to DSMC2 would give new life to this cameras. But Red dont care about product that they sold us 4 yers ago. Look at Helium for example: one of the dealers is selling 60fps version brains for as low as 7000USD and they dont sale. i am watching one for 2 months now not moving. no one wants it. why^ 8K camera that shoots RAW 60fps and yet its labeled as EOL and Obsolete. Same in rental no one wants it and i was giving my for less then FX6 rents. its stigmatized product and Red has a huge role in devaluating its own cameras.

I am reduced now to only one Red Monstro and most probably this will be my last Red. I dont feel that my investment in DSMC3 would be smart at this point. I love Mostro image quality, i really love R3D and IPP2 workflow , Reds customer support is one of the best ... but i still think Red is random when it comes to brand stability and image that it gained. I cant see my self dropping 60k in to Red system ever again.

I would love to see new firmware, 3ed party media, new cfExpress module, new free WiFi controle app, SmallHD monitor that works with pogo or single Lemo cable for DSMC2... but i think this is wishful thinking . Most probably we will see more used market price drops , brand depreciation, lack of new recording media and eventually end of the support for DSMC2

 

[M Harvey]

I understand where everyone here is coming from—it would be totally great if these $30-60k+ investments had new ways to extend their lives from Red or clever 3rd parties.
However, I think we have to be honest with ourselves about the world we live in. Is it reasonable to expect Red—or Sony or Arri or Blackmagic or Canon— to do that? The pace of new camera releases and the number of competing choices in each market segment has grown very rapidly in the past decade. How can a small company compete in this environment where most of us favor the newer and cheaper over repairing the “good enough” old? How much would you spend to upgrade the media bay in your decade-old Epic Dragon when you can get a Komodo for $6k?


Red’s main response to this challenging marketplace seems to have been to cut the price of entry drastically with the Komodo and then the V-Raptor. (This is why I’m now a Red owner and not just a renter.) And this does of course also drastically damage the 2nd hand market. That’s the price we pay—but it’s hard on the companies, too, which have to pay for R&D, source components in a pandemic-shaken world, and invest significantly in repair/spare parts—only to occasionally have a project go the way of Atari’s ET: THE VIDEO GAME.

 

[Kristin Stewart]

You're a little off subject. We're more talking about the recording media mandatory to run the camera, be it Red One, DSMC1 or DSMC2 than repairing the camera.

If you're obliged to buy another camera and upgrade because you can't buy anymore any new recording media for your still working camera, it's a problem. For DSMC 1 & 2, Red has done almost everything to keep their flourishing and opaque business of proprietary media, except Kippertie (but I wouldn't bet on this company, it's too small to survive in the long term).

In Europe, it's called planned obsolescence and it's illegal, like it or not. Apple and other manufacturers had to comply with this or they're out of the European market. And guess what, they did it. But Red doesn't care at all about Europe from the very beginning. I guess they realized very early that they wouldn't be able to compete with Arri or Sony in this market.

The least Red could do if they really respect their customers like they claim it everywhere is to make sure that their proprietary media is available at a decent cost and long after they stopped supporting their short-life cameras. Heck, they don't even sell the DSMC2 960 GB anymore. After all, everybody knows now that it's just a $100 OEM SSD enclosed, they is no more R&D. And with the money they will make selling cheaper these media, maybe they could pay more the Mexican workers on the assembly line and put less fuel in the private jet.

I know, it's scandalous

I understand where everyone here is coming from—it would be totally great if these $30-60k+ investments had new ways to extend their lives from Red or clever 3rd parties.
However, I think we have to be honest with ourselves about the world we live in. Is it reasonable to expect Red—or Sony or Arri or Blackmagic or Canon— to do that? The pace of new camera releases and the number of competing choices in each market segment has grown very rapidly in the past decade. How can a small company compete in this environment where most of us favor the newer and cheaper over repairing the “good enough” old? How much would you spend to upgrade the media bay in your decade-old Epic Dragon when you can get a Komodo for $6k?


Red’s main response to this challenging marketplace seems to have been to cut the price of entry drastically with the Komodo and then the V-Raptor. (This is why I’m now a Red owner and not just a renter.) And this does of course also drastically damage the 2nd hand market. That’s the price we pay—but it’s hard on the companies, too, which have to pay for R&D, source components in a pandemic-shaken world, and invest significantly in repair/spare parts—only to occasionally have a project go the way of Atari’s ET: THE VIDEO GAME.

 

[Brian Timmons]

I think much of what was already posted above show this media discussion opens up the greater issue of long term support for RED cameras.
RED at least tries to keep the older hardware supported but I think there are real limits to what they can do in terms of allocating the needed resources.

1- I always felt there might be a version of REDucation designed for technicians to be certified by RED for repairing RED cameras including those that are EOL. Granted that parts may still be an issue but at least there can be a 3rd party support system slowly put in place with the knowledge to properly maintain and (if parts are available) fix aging cameras.

2- There might be some further basic support for 3rd parties willing to create modules that help solve the issue of missing parts for some of the older RED models. This is a good example of such projects.

These RED cameras are all works of art that still help us produce works of art long into the future.

In the long run it might be a good move to make.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Zack Birlew]

Little story about today, I had been watching a broadcast production auction hoping to nab some new goodies and maybe a new camera or two, the prices were really good! Well, they were good until this morning when the major bidders jumped in. Still, while it took a while to build up to anybody bidding on RED VV Monstros kits and VV Ranger kits, all of which went for around $8,000-9,000 surprisingly, there were three lots of RED One MX cameras. Now, I had watched them barely lift to $100 yesterday and I figured if nothing else I could add them to my arsenal as C, D, and E cameras for times when we had only one or two takes of something and there were some nice bonuses like functioning RED Pro 7" LCDs which have gotten hard to come by and I could add those to my own RED One MX kit as backup parts.

Well, when I watched how the auction went today, I was surprised that they took off and got up to the $1,000+ mark! While there were some real steals, especially the Monstros and Rangers which I'm kicking myself for not having the funds for one at those prices (and they were full kits!!!) [have to save for festival/distribution costs for my first feature] it was clear that there was still some nice interest in the old RED One MX kits on sale and that goes to show how valuable and useful they still are for various kinds of productions.

 

[Brian Timmons]

Little story about today, I had been watching a broadcast production auction hoping to nab some new goodies and maybe a new camera or two, the prices were really good! Well, they were good until this morning when the major bidders jumped in. Still, while it took a while to build up to anybody bidding on RED VV Monstros kits and VV Ranger kits, all of which went for around $8,000-9,000 surprisingly, there were three lots of RED One MX cameras. Now, I had watched them barely lift to $100 yesterday and I figured if nothing else I could add them to my arsenal as C, D, and E cameras for times when we had only one or two takes of something and there were some nice bonuses like functioning RED Pro 7" LCDs which have gotten hard to come by and I could add those to my own RED One MX kit as backup parts.

Well, when I watched how the auction went today, I was surprised that they took off and got up to the $1,000+ mark! While there were some real steals, especially the Monstros and Rangers which I'm kicking myself for not having the funds for one at those prices (and they were full kits!!!) [have to save for festival/distribution costs for my first feature] it was clear that there was still some nice interest in the old RED One MX kits on sale and that goes to show how valuable and useful they still are for various kinds of productions.

Where in the hell did this take place?
Sure these didn't fall off the back of a camera truck or get lifted by the guy who said they were the PA to the camera intern?

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Zack Birlew]

It was some kind of closeout auction on this site called Sold Tiger, I've seen other auction sites like that before, interesting stuff sometimes and I've gotten good stuff like pro LED lights and grip equipment, albeit with luck, of course. Couldn't believe how low some things went, kits of Sony FS7s, Mark I and Mark II, for about $1,000 and an F55 went for around $2,000 or so before I lost track of it, everything was timed in chunks of lots. But yeah, Monstros and Rangers went for practically nothing compared to MSRP and, again, we're talking whole matched kits of accessories too.

 

[Phil Holland]

I was tracking that auction. Very often you can find a steal at big ones like this. And there were certainly very, very good ones to be had. I suspect some will just flip the gear as they can 2X it easily.

 

[Luka Sanader]

to add oil on the fire, today i had a conversation with a producer who offered me 750$ for a week rental of Monstro calling it legacy Red. "I wont pay 1500 a week for something that sales for 9000 now days". For next 15 minutes of our conversation i had to explain model differences, rental process of "old" Reds that no one wants and so on...
I have no clue how did we end up like this and how did over night my Monstro become labeled as obsolete and undesirable camera.
I am not talking about resale value on the use market only. It seems that DSMC2 in general is devaluated in rentals and it is becoming really hard to convince producers and directors to use it any more.

this is real paradox: On one side i have super reliable, trouble free, 8k, Vista Vision, 60fps, Raw shooting camera that is excellent in low light and produces stunning image that no one wants and that is so devaluated that i can only pass it as B-cam or rent it out for low budget projects. On the other side we have Arri Mini that looks good but its bad in low light and its not even 4k still rents and still is gold standard.

Red is the dead end! If Red has any future that will be in Komodo style, inexpensive but potent camera for personal use. I know for sure that i wont give 1$ more for new Red cameras

 

[Phil Holland]

producer
I have no clue how did we end up like this and how did over night my Monstro become labeled as obsolete and undesirable camera.

Semi-ironic, don't normally rent my gear out often, but I began renting my Monstros to Marvel this year and have been getting a fair rate for my package. The system is nice and robust and currently A-Cam on "something".

I'm not anti-producer by any means, but very recently in the last few years I've faced some fascinating conversations trying to drive rental rates down. Tactics deployed have been referencing ShareGrid, "my rental house gives me this", "we did a 1 day week/1 day weekend last shoot", and various other things. I don't normally deal with producers deploying these tactics. There's also been some sly tactics for longer shoots even with a negotiated rate to stick to days as numbers and not go by weeks (using an averaged day rate and not using days), which is clever, but an easy catch.

Rental is a fascinating landscape. What was a full week became a 4 day week/1 day weekend, then 3 day week/1 day weekend, and most recently worse than that. Meanwhile this is also not even an issue in some corners of the industry as I know there's proper rates for gear going on at various houses.

Large/long projects have somewhat contributed to this as you can often negotiate a killer deal if you have cameras out on a job for 3-9 months. But I've found producers who muscle for the lowest rates I usually talking very, very short shoots.

Fundamentally Monstro is an 8K 60p VV camera. There's currently two direct competitors looking at general production features. RED V-Raptor (higher frame rate, same format size) and Sony Venice 2 8K (60p, slightly wider format size). Combined with the aspect of the Interchangeable OLPFs and it's a mature system, that's the major reasons I didn't sell it immediately after testing the Sony V2 as well as when V-Raptor Launched.

Most of the year though I'm deciding the cameras I'm using on set however, which is a different place to be generally. I have a few projects each year that ask for other tools though and I do cater to that. But that's LF/A65 and more recently Sony for one project due to that being the camera on set already. I have filmed once in the last decade with a sub-4K system and that was the Alexa. I think all of that outlines that there are different markets and such as well as different use cases.

Whatever the case and what's actually going on, make your money. Turn down anything embarrassingly low. Keep notes on who offered what and when. Helps a lot in the future.

 

[Luka Sanader]

Whatever the case and what's actually going on, make your money. Turn down anything embarrassingly low. Keep notes on who offered what and when. Helps a lot in the future.

you are household name and probably its easier to stand your ground. on the other hand, I am a bottom feeder sooting on average 2 or sometimes 3 arthouse, low budget features a year. For me its absolutely necessary to have a camera and to have something that gives me some extra back from already low day rates as cinematographer. Since i have switched to Red i had no problems charging for the cameras or convincing people to shoot on Red. In last 6 months things turned dramatically. For example, 2 projects ago producer didn't want to pay what i was asking for the Monstro as he had "free" Venice form someone. Dirctor was stoked to shoot on "ozark" camera and that was it for my Red. 2 weeks before the shoot Venice shrieked to FX6 that was also "free" and "same sensor as Venice ". Finally it was up to me to decide do we shoot on FX6 or i shoot with my Monstro for what ever i can get for it.

In the past i used to be able to rent the Heliums and Monstro to my clients and now i am fighting to push Monstro in to films i shoot as it makes my life easier. In 2018 when i got first Helium i have made my money back in the first 8 months and judging buy interests for Red cameras now days i would need a 4 yers to repay it.


I agree that rental is strange landscape and i would not be in that pair of the shoes. But again where i am only Red that rents out a lot is Komodo. i just talked to biggest rental in Montreal and thay have 4 Monstros collecting dust that they give out on 70% discounts to clients.

As personal camera Monstro fantastic but unfortunately its as commercially valuable camera its devaluated in every way. i can only imagine what would be if i have DSMC2 Dragon or Scarlet-W.
Thats why i cant see my self buying Raptor XL system for 50K ever again. I would rather got twice deep in depth and got Venice2 or new Arri LF then have to deal with producers, directors and rapid devaluation and stigma that goes with Red brand. Too bad i really like the product

 

[Phil Holland]

buying

I don't know if this will help your situation at all, but general things I've jotted down as these discussions happen frequently.

I've chatted a lot about ROI and strategy when it comes to a lot of camera related things. Everybody will have a different use case and market, but generally my tips are:
- Buy the camera system as early as you can from time of release as the first 1-3 years are the sweet earnings spot as of mid 2010s.
- New systems sometimes have a moment when the adoption/popularity shifts.
- Depending on your market, amount of work, expectations your goal should be to pay the camera off within 3 months to 3 years.
- Cameras rental lifespan can exceed that, but the sooner you pay it off, the sooner you are making a decent profit on rental.
- Camera product cycles are fast now. 1-3 years. Plus competing systems overlapping and released within that span.
- The industry is extremely broad and dynamic.
- Some entities could realistically buy new premium cameras every 3-6 months and still make a worthwhile profit. Most cannot do anything like that.
- More recently, like late 2010s through early 2020s entry level cameras are competing for jobs they didn't used to.
- Depending on market and competition it is up to you to stick to your rates and/or adapt as necessary. That's often a very hard choice as it could lead to additional devaluation or not.
- If you can, think like a larger rental house in terms of services they provide as well as general equipment care if rental like that is your goal. That is key when outlining your rates on gear to people investing serious money in a project.
- Budgets stretch across every possible tier now. From nearly nothing to buying and populating a decent sized island while furnishing it with nice homes. Equipment prices are either a major factor or are not.
- You + Your Gear. Can be done, can also be difficult to achieve on projects with high budget sensitivity or other mandated camera directions. You are competing literally with every other option in that situation however. That is where it gets difficult.

To that last point if they are using an FX6 over a DSMC2 body, we're not talking about a production that is going to rent any higher end package. ARRI will always rent as there is a pool of people who only really live in that world and don't consider much else. It is a very commercial world, but keep in mind most people who shoot ARRI rent. To the point of Venice 2, the camera is being used, but I have seen Monstro this year chosen over it for productions. There's more going on there than meets the eye once you test those systems out fully. Even though V2 is the new girl at the dance, Monstro very much stands up against it. I mean it was as expensive for a full package in 2019 and is still a $50K+ system.

Any stigma that is attached to any brand really needs to be examined at this point. I interact with people with some very, very wild ideas about brand X, Y, or Z. Absolutely strange stuff too. The companies generally operate the same in form and function, minus the two very large companies that easily could squash the rest of the industry if they wanted that. But the play is to make the long dollar, so they don't.

The market can influence your camera purchasing decisions as well for sure. But usually camera flexibility in terms of features and capabilities is the most useful driving factor outside of the localized nuanced politics, timelines, market, etc. But that doesn't outline everybody's situation or what they are facing when it comes to all of this.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

If you were a DP working on low budget productions, why would you not just rent instead? You could get good deals on older cameras, like the Epic, or the 6K Dragon even. You'd not only get a good deal, but the owners of these cameras would be very appreciative of your business. They're cheaper than the clunky old Alexas, and arguably more capable. Tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Luka Sanader]

If you were a DP working on low budget productions, why would you not just rent instead? You could get good deals on older cameras, like the Epic, or the 6K Dragon even. You'd not only get a good deal, but the owners of these cameras would be very appreciative of your business. They're cheaper than the clunky old Alexas, and arguably more capable. Tell me I'm wrong.

In my city you can get fully loaded Helium package for a price of Teradek Bolt500 and that is a part of the inflation and over all devaluation of Red as such. As far as rental are concerned DSMC1 and most of DSMC2 line is dead in Montreal. Only 2 old Reds that somewhat rent out are Monstor and Gemini (to Music Video folks) but thats not the point.
My main issue is that rapid devaluation on used market started over all devaluation of the brand and a fact that no one wants DSMC2 cameras any more. At one moment i had 3, hi end Reds that together costed as much as Mini LF and still i had to have all the time "the red conversation" with directors and producers. If i had a dollar every time i had to convince someone that Red is good camera and that it wont die on the set... Finally the question is why would i care about Red when Red is devaluating it like no other manufacturer out there?
Thats why i cant see my self dropping 50k for new XL package as i did in the past with Monstro and Helium. For sure i will buy Komodo2 that i can pay out of single gig and have it as small personal cam but i also wont rent that or have to deal with the industry standards

too bad ass i really think Monstro several yers back had all what it would take to be a king of a hill. it had sensor size , "arri" look, super resolution, raw, low light and high frame rate and yet we came to point that is valued same as alexa classic and f55