RED's militaristic branding and marketing.

[Michael Hastings]

Alexa owners reading this thread must be getting a good laugh at our expense.

Yup

Which is the point of those of us suggesting it is going to negatively impact the value of RED products and owner investments - whether you think RED should change or not to something more "wholesome". It used to be that there was nothing close in terms of performance at the RED price points versus ARRI and Sony - so RED could be whoever they wanted to be and you didn't have much choice for serious alternatives unless you wanted to pay tens of thousands more to lose the militaristic branding.

That's not the case anymore. Anyone with knowledge of shooting wink5, lighting, color correction, etc. knows that there are at least a dozen cameras in similar or lower price points that can provide viable source material for virtually any level of production. (think about the fact that Arris at 3.4K are used in some IMAX releases.)

 

[Mark Phelan]

You took it out of context which was an adjective before "symbolism" and stuck it in front of "camera", a common but inappropriate technique.

Will disagree about this because it was implied by what he was saying.

But as far as the dumb part it was referring to that he should have decided not to buy the camera he thought was best for his needs and go away rather than simply and politely telling the manufacturer that he didn't like that type of branding and making cogent suggestions for what he thought would be a better way.

PS
By the way, I agree with Jacek that Red has very capable and sophisticated marketing people - so they clearly are choosing this type of branding in spite of suggestions by paying customers to go in a different direction. But sophisticated/capable people make mistakes and some of us think it may be at least a minor one. As some have pointed out, those of you that own RED have a financial stake in how that works out.

I too agree with Jacek's point about RED's marketing. It's up to them to do whatever they choose, and clearly it has been working. The ironic thing is I took a stroll over to the RED.com site and am hard pressed to find anything that is a "militaristic" sounding name nowadays. So what exactly is the problem here?

 

[Michael Hastings]

Will disagree about this because it was implied by what he was saying.

Fair enough, Mark.

I too agree with Jacek's point about RED's marketing. It's up to them to do whatever they choose, and clearly it has been working. The ironic thing is I took a stroll over to the RED.com site and am hard pressed to find anything that is a "militaristic" sounding name nowadays. So what exactly is the problem here?

It isn't a big problem - given the competitive environment RED has much greater challenges ahead - It's really just a suggestion.


PS:

What have we done about that spoon arsenal? :wink5: (Joke Ref Phil for those that haven't read whole thread.)

 

[Alexander Sutton-Hough]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGAnpl6huSo/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

"ENLIST AND BE THE FIRST TO KNOW. LINK IN BIO."

Combining the word ENLIST with an aggressive death skull conjures up the imagery of war, weapons, hate and violence. That was on purpose by their social media team to keep that lifestyle branding.

 

[Ben Roper]

I think Komodo is very well placed - good name and nice neutral but solid-looking design. Red moving in the right direction.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

I think Komodo is very well placed - good name and nice neutral but solid-looking design. Red moving in the right direction.

You haven't looked very closely at the packaging. It's what prompted my response as Post #2 in this thread.

 

[Scot Yount]

I chose RED because in Los Angeles a lot of my clients were demanding RED for projects so I invested where the market was demanding to make a living. I had that discussion with myself and weighed all my camera options, but the clients I have been working with demand RED for the camera tech reputation and specs.

So...I am just trying to understand this. You bought a RED camera because everyone you were working with wants them....but now you think they WON'T want them because they have a skull on them? (which they had before?). I think it is pretty clear that RED's marketing is very intentional. Lots of RED folks come from skateboarding, bike messengers, snowboarders, extreme skiers, motocross and surfers. On and on.

So...yeah, maybe those people like the marketing and nomenclature that RED has chosen in the past. Again, while I own a so called forged Weapon camera, and though I was in the military for 6 years, and though I don't like the marketing myself, I have never had a client come up to me and ask me about skulls.

 

[Alexander Sutton-Hough]

So...I am just trying to understand this. You bought a RED camera because everyone you were working with wants them....but now you think they WON'T want them because they have a skull on them? (which they had before?). I think it is pretty clear that RED's marketing is very intentional. Lots of RED folks come from skateboarding, bike messengers, snowboarders, extreme skiers, motocross and surfers. On and on.

So...yeah, maybe those people like the marketing and nomenclature that RED has chosen in the past. Again, while I own a so called forged Weapon camera, and though I was in the military for 6 years, and though I don't like the marketing myself, I have never had a client come up to me and ask me about skulls.

I am worried there WILL be a backlash. Have you seen what's happening here in our country? The skull branding logos could easily be seen by people as white supremacy and fascist symbols considering they have been used throughout history and today by those exact people. Even if RED's marketing never becomes a public debate, the overall culture it represents is the last thing I want to be associated with while working and making a living, especially now.

 

[Jamie A]

The skull branding logos could easily be seen by people as white supremacy

This is almost comical.... Have you thought about putting tape over the logos? You can choose whatever colour you like to not offend yourself.

 

[Sergio Perez]

This is silly.

Red was created by passion and a rebellious, groundbreaking atitude towards the status quo back when it was launched.
This attitude is what makes also Red create the amazing, groundbreaking tools every single time.

Taste is very subjective.

For me, as long as RED keeps this attitude and keeps breaking ground, innovating, creating tools that open doors to creativity and to new possibilities, what the passionate fellows that create the brand like is fine by me.

I for one love the design aesthetic, the colours - stormtrooper white and regular black, as well as my Carbon Monstro. Loved the Hydrogen industrial design. Love the DSMC2 and 1 Form Factor. And also th support gear and whole internal Red design and ecosystem.

 

[Scot Yount]

I am worried there WILL be a backlash. Have you seen what's happening here in our country? The skull branding logos could easily be seen by people as white supremacy and fascist symbols considering they have been used throughout history and today by those exact people. Even if RED's marketing never becomes a public debate, the overall culture it represents is the last thing I want to be associated with while working and making a living, especially now.

Yes, I have seen what is happening in this country. I should make note of the fact that I was a TV News reporter (not camera op) for 28 years. I covered 9/11, the Sandy Hook Elementary School Massacre, the Boston Marathon Bombing and and a thousand other murders and fires. I have had guns pointed at me by people who were angry that we were there, and even by a police sergeant who pointed his revolver at my head and said "I should fucking shoot you", while he trembled with anger. I know a lot about what people are capable of, and what weapons mean to some people, and what that has done to our democracy. All that said, what I can tell you is that we are taking ourselves way too seriously to think anybody but US cares about what logos are on our cameras.

Edit: At the end of the day, your camera is a tool. Not a lifestyle. Do you think Mark Toia cares what logo is on his camera? My father was a land surveyor. He (and other surveyors) call the transit or theodolite the "gun". And he used to say if you want to make a living, you need to invest in your tools. That is what I have done...logos that I do not like be damned, and so far, the cheques have not bounced.

 

[Alexander Sutton-Hough]

This is almost comical.... Have you thought about putting tape over the logos? You can choose whatever colour you like to not offend yourself.

To be clear we are not only talking about it on the camera. Its the logo on website, social media, packaging, and any promotions. Its the whole branding identity behind the Weapon and Komodo Skulls, its a message and image RED wants to portray.

That is what marketing and branding is. Its not just one logo on the camera to cover up its the brand identity. Something that some velcro taped over it can't cover up.


Also getting violent threats in my email account now by Tom Hereford? Anyone know who this is? I think they just created a new gmail account to threaten me. Is this what RED is fostering?

 

[Scot Yount]

To be clear we are not only talking about it on the camera. Its the logo on website, social media, packaging, and any promotions. Its the whole branding identity behind the Weapon and Komodo Skulls, its a message and image RED wants to portray.

That is what marketing and branding is. Its not just one logo on the camera to cover up its the brand identity. Something that some velcro taped over it can't cover up.


Also getting violent threats in my email account now by Tom Hereford? Anyone know who this is? I think they just created a new gmail account to threaten me. Is this what RED is fostering?

It is a tool. Not a lifestyle. And if somebody is threatening you then everyone on this forum will come to your defense. That is what this community is, a pool of passionate ideas, and while we might not agree, we can be civil.

 

[Jamil Stubbs]

I am worried there WILL be a backlash. Have you seen what's happening here in our country? The skull branding logos could easily be seen by people as white supremacy and fascist symbols considering they have been used throughout history and today by those exact people. Even if RED's marketing never becomes a public debate, the overall culture it represents is the last thing I want to be associated with while working and making a living, especially now.

Absolute lunacy.. This is highly arbitrary and strictly personal consumption. As someone who is totally against white supremacy I have never caught that vibe with any RED products. Its obviously apparent this conversation is dwindling into something outside of the the original post. As a African American I am a little disappointed....

 

[Scot Yount]

This whole thing is a bit of a tempest in a teapot. The rest of the world does not give a shit about high end cinema cameras and their marketing.

 

[Zachary K]

I would be very happy to see the brand move away from the military aesthetic.
The user-base is both men & women and we don't all shoot EXTREME ACTION.

 

[Phil Holland]

I'll just slide in and state people have previously voiced discomfort with some of the naming of things and it seems RED has listened to that. There are no Weapons, Bombs, or whatever in the store these days. The current worst offender is "Tactical" from a quick browse through the shop.

As for the skull. Whelp, I'm biased as I've had one on my business cards since I was a teenager and still use that currently. The skull itself carries a lot of symbolism throughout cultures well before "now". My particular fascination has been tied to mortality as well as anatomy and wisdom, perhaps even the look into the deeper mysteries of life, but everybody will take their own interpretation I imagine. Somewhere between DaVinci and Goonies I took a shinning to it.

Overall they seem to welcome feedback and it does seem to implement change likely after things are mulled over a bit. Much of the weaponry themed aesthetic is a memory from a previous decade now.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

As for the skull. Whelp, I'm biased as I've had one on my business cards since I was a teenager and still use that currently. The skull itself carries a lot of symbolism throughout cultures well before "now". My particular fascination has been tied to mortality as well as anatomy and wisdom, perhaps even the look into the deeper mysteries of life, but everybody will take their own interpretation I imagine. Somewhere between DaVinci and Goonies I took a shinning to it.

Current problem with the skull is that it's very close to the "punisher blue line" used by fascist supporters of the police accused of killing African Americans. It increased in fashion after BLM and is a clear statement of police power over minorities. The Red skull's shape looks similar in form and I don't think many would want to be associated with something like that.

Personally, sure, I agree that a skull can represent what you mention, but a skull has so many negative interpretations and used in and around many destructive groups and ideals. Together with the aesthetics of military equipment, the entire design philosophy invokes something I don't think has anything to do with cameras, photography and filmmaking.

I still think the design aesthetics should be cleaned up, logos referring to much more universal interpretative themes and so on. Hydrogen, Helium, Gemini speaks to a far more universal naming convention. The design philosophy behind Komodo being a nod to the old medium format systems is a much more peaceful ideal than things resembling military gear.

I get that there are military families that have less problem with this design philosophy, but they are a very niche audience and I can guess that Red didn't make their cameras designed for them. A design should have a much broader appeal, something more neutral and agreeable among people. Using element naming like Hydrogen and Helium is a much more balanced and neutral naming convention while the design could easily be focused more on Jarred's ideas about retro inspiration or focus on something cleaner.

Hydrogen and Helium are the first in the periodic table. So maybe DSMC3 or its sensor should be named Red Lithium since it's the third element. There are lots of good names to be found on the periodic table if Red would continue down that line. I would like to see something along the line of light. Let's say that Red's next sensor is a very light-sensitive sensor in the way of Gemini. So maybe as I mentioned before, Red Spectrum, Red Kelvin or Red Photon.

There are so many other types of themes and names that I think fits Red's systems much better than military and skulls. I would definitely want to see an overhaul of Red's design philosophy going into DSMC3.

 

[Mark Phelan]

Current problem with the skull is that it's very close to the "punisher blue line" used by fascist supporters of the police accused of killing African Americans. It increased in fashion after BLM and is a clear statement of police power over minorities. The Red skull's shape looks similar in form and I don't think many would want to be associated with something like that.

Personally, sure, I agree that a skull can represent what you mention, but a skull has so many negative interpretations and used in and around many destructive groups and ideals. Together with the aesthetics of military equipment, the entire design philosophy invokes something I don't think has anything to do with cameras, photography and filmmaking.

I still think the design aesthetics should be cleaned up, logos referring to much more universal interpretative themes and so on. Hydrogen, Helium, Gemini speaks to a far more universal naming convention. The design philosophy behind Komodo being a nod to the old medium format systems is a much more peaceful ideal than things resembling military gear.

I get that there are military families that have less problem with this design philosophy, but they are a very niche audience and I can guess that Red didn't make their cameras designed for them. A design should have a much broader appeal, something more neutral and agreeable among people. Using element naming like Hydrogen and Helium is a much more balanced and neutral naming convention while the design could easily be focused more on Jarred's ideas about retro inspiration or focus on something cleaner.

Hydrogen and Helium are the first in the periodic table. So maybe DSMC3 or its sensor should be named Red Lithium since it's the third element. There are lots of good names to be found on the periodic table if Red would continue down that line. I would like to see something along the line of light. Let's say that Red's next sensor is a very light-sensitive sensor in the way of Gemini. So maybe as I mentioned before, Red Spectrum, Red Kelvin or Red Photon.

There are so many other types of themes and names that I think fits Red's systems much better than military and skulls. I would definitely want to see an overhaul of Red's design philosophy going into DSMC3.

All of the ongoing commentary is making for a good laugh. Reminds me of the quote, "A camel is a horse designed by a committee."

 

[Aaron Lochert]

+1 for "not a fan" of the branding. But they've definitely cleaned it up over the years as others have already said. Either way, velcro isn't hard to slap on the camera to cover it. For what it's worth, I'm also a firearms owner, just don't care for that kind of aesthetic on a tool for imaging.

The feature set is what keeps me here, not the branding. So as long as RED keeps pushing the bar, I'll continue to roll my eyes but purchase the cameras anyway. They don't owe me anything and I don't owe them my loyalty. That's the way I like my companies anyway.

And that's all I'll say about that.