Red's Delivery

[Eric J Kosinski]

Both James Cameron and Peter Jackson ordered multiple EPIC-M's, not X's... the custom handcrafting is more much more expensive, but also apparently easier for RED to schedule for production (due to less extreme demand??)

If you truly want your EPIC right away, order an EPIC-M today-only $58,000-and it's in stock!

http://www.red.com/store/epic/product/epic-m

P.S. "right away" can not possibly mean right away as I have been waiting on a simple Battery & SSD Base Station order for over 2 weeks with no contact. I called and no one seems to have any estimate on when that can ship. It is honestly ridiculous that even in stock items can't ship within 2 weeks regardless of how big or small the company is. Either way, it is what it is and we can't do much about it besides buying other gear. I guess I'll have to hurry up and wait as will the majority of us.

P.S.S - if you complain too much about this aspect, you will only receive negative comments and disagreements defending the situation. The point is this shipping situation is a moot point now. If you want the camera, accessories, and to be part of the game with RED, it just requires patience. I'm on the fence about the company policies and ship dates already, but I have faith it will get better over time. It's my understanding that when the RED One started shipping it was a very similar situation that got worked out over time.

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

I don't think you should ever plan, tentatively plan, or think about planning for work with a pre-ordered anything prior to it's arrival.

If you look at the spreadsheet, there is still quite a few "300" event Canon mount cams that need to be allocated. I won't be actually bummed unless it is late March before mine is shipped (SO 1121)

For me it is not at all about planning shoots around a RED Scarlet. Of course shoots coming up on my schedule would benefit from the Scarlet X, but I have tons of equipment personally to shoot with until then. The problem is many of us would buy a F3 or another camera in the meantime if we knew Scarlet would be another few months. Some of us are right at the point where we can't afford two systems as so much of our budget was invested into one system, which means we now have to wait. NO PROBLEM I SAY, but it is more than fair for RED customers to know estimated dates, even if far out so they can make an educated decision on a real expected date instead of "starts shipping Dec 1st".

Jarred has given us all some hope with some recent announcements and expectations, but nothing definitive, but it is a start with more information and I really appreciate that info. If you find those posts, the REDusers praised him and other RED team members for getting any info on products recently, so it is obvious we all want it. What is misunderstood is why it doesn't happen more often.

As some have said though, if there is no new info posted, more than likely there is no new info in general for them to tell.

This subject could be taking away major sales for RED against Sony, Canon, etc if this schedule of shipping stays consistent and RED knows it for sure, so they have to get better at it soon. I'm sure they are working to do this. Especially since technology changes so fast, if we are waiting months for cameras, by the time we get them there could be crazy new technology and the next best thing. The reason I'm not so worried is because RED shoots 4K +, so even if it takes a bit longer, you're camera is not obsolete.

 

[Kamal Kyrala]

P.S.S - if you complain too much about this aspect, you will only receive negative comments and disagreements defending the situation. The point is this shipping situation is a moot point now. If you want the camera, accessories, and to be part of the game with RED, it just requires patience. I'm on the fence about the company policies and ship dates already, but I have faith it will get better over time. It's my understanding that when the RED One started shipping it was a very similar situation that got worked out over time.

Patience really isn't the issue here.. it's transparency. Unless Red really has no way to predict their production capacity, their decision not to makes me worry about *why* they would choose not to give it out. People complaining about incorrect predictions can't be the whole story. You don't just stop performing a standard business practice like letting people know when they can expect what they ordered in order to prevent some whining. Especially when that whining is drowned out by people confused as to why they don't have a ship date.

 

[AJ Aguirre]

I find it comforting in a way that Jarred and Jim havent been posting on here as frequently as usual, although we don't get as many updates, we do know they are definitely working hard to fulfill our orders and further development rather than spending valuable time on here.

 

[Roshdi Alkadri]

Jim realizes how important that part is of the equation and he promised it will be resolved.

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

Patience really isn't the issue here.. it's transparency. Unless Red really has no way to predict their production capacity, their decision not to makes me worry about *why* they would choose not to give it out. People complaining about incorrect predictions can't be the whole story. You don't just stop performing a standard business practice like letting people know when they can expect what they ordered in order to prevent some whining. Especially when that whining is drowned out by people confused as to why they don't have a ship date.

I feel you; I guess what I'm saying is it's obvious that RED isn't saying much so even though we all wish for more transparency as an ethical thing to do towards your customers, RED just isn't doing it like all want. I guess I'm justifying my purchase as it will be a semi future proof camera for some time so a month or two won't bother me that much. If i'm waiting until Jan or Feb and don't have real answers I'll cancel my order and Buy a Sony F3 (next best affordable option for me) and move on. For now I'll hope they ship these things out the door and of course that we are updated more often.

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

I find it comforting in a way that Jarred and Jim havent been posting on here as frequently as usual, although we don't get as many updates, we do know they are definitely working hard to fulfill our orders and further development rather than spending valuable time on here.

Does anyone honestly think Jim and Jarred are doing anything with packaging and shipping orders, on the production lines, etc? They personally can't speed up production any better in the short term. If you have seen the assembly line process pics, you can tell pretty clear Jim and Jarred aren't sitting down with these guys doing this kind of work that needs to move faster. Either way, their time is valuable for sure, but at this moment, the shipping department and production line is probably what is backed up. They can implement rules, but unless they are jumping on the machines, nothing changes in the short term.

 

[Gene Crucean]

Yeah... and they are doing a great job in terms of development and production imo. My only issue is their lack of transparency. I know they may loose some orders if they revealed that many Scarlet-X's wouldn't make it out until Q2 2012, but still..

Huh? Even after Jim publicly stated that he wasn't going to be announcing things before they are ready to ship... is a BILLION times MORE transparent than any other company I've ever seen. I LOVE it.

The only aspect I'd like to see improved in this area are more "official" published tech specs. LOTS of them. I'm a vfx guy and need them. Otherwise I have to google things and find some random dudes posted notes in some obscure thread in the Netherlands.

 

[AJ Aguirre]

Does anyone honestly think Jim and Jarred are doing anything with packaging and shipping orders, on the production lines, etc? They personally can't speed up production any better in the short term. If you have seen the assembly line process pics, you can tell pretty clear Jim and Jarred aren't sitting down with these guys doing this kind of work that needs to move faster. Either way, their time is valuable for sure, but at this moment, the shipping department and production line is probably what is backed up. They can implement rules, but unless they are jumping on the machines, nothing changes in the short term.

True, did not mean to imply they are sitting crafting scarlets for us, but nonetheless they are working hard for our sake in some form or fashion. Absolutely

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

True, did not mean to imply they are sitting crafting scarlets for us, but nonetheless they are working hard for our sake in some form or fashion. Absolutely

yeah, I figured that. I was joking too, it would be a funny thing though, Jim and Jarred in the trenches of the assembly lines

 

[AJ Aguirre]

Huh? Even after Jim publicly stated that he wasn't going to be announcing things before they are ready to ship... is a BILLION times MORE transparent than any other company I've ever seen. I LOVE it.

The only aspect I'd like to see improved in this area are more "official" published tech specs. LOTS of them. I'm a vfx guy and need them. Otherwise I have to google things and find some random dudes posted notes in some obscure thread in the Netherlands.

Yes +1000 to this. I wish there was a "specifications" tab for all products.

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

Huh? Even after Jim publicly stated that he wasn't going to be announcing things before they are ready to ship... is a BILLION times MORE transparent than any other company I've ever seen. I LOVE it.

The only aspect I'd like to see improved in this area are more "official" published tech specs. LOTS of them. I'm a vfx guy and need them. Otherwise I have to google things and find some random dudes posted notes in some obscure thread in the Netherlands.

I see both sides of this, but I think what some of the guys here are saying is that if you can set ship dates of Dec 1st, for instance and start taking orders letting customers know this date, then as a responsible company, they can figure a number of orders each day (which can be back estimated too) and there is a way to clearly estimate the ship dates of Scarlets or at least let us know if we order by a specific time and specific hour, what to expect as an estimate within a week or two. All companies have a logistic team which figures things out regarding delivery and expectations of delivery. It is just a good business practice and I think we all want it. BUT; The thing I think we all need to realize is that no matter how much people complain about this aspect of RED, it won't change obviously until they are ready to change it.

RED has made that clear with specifically not answering this question of delivery dates, so we can all respect that for whatever reason and simply wait for our products or choose not to buy. I will wait as I feel it is well worth it for the products I ordered.

 

[BrandonChristensen]

It would also help if I had a more...concrete order number. Rather than being 3800 or so behind the 850 numbers...if we knew how many were ordered.

Because the Google Spreadsheet has like 250+...but I'm 3800 back...obviously most buyers aren't on RU, but is it like 1/4 of the amount of buys? 1/8th?

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

It would also help if I had a more...concrete order number. Rather than being 3800 or so behind the 850 numbers...if we knew how many were ordered.

Because the Google Spreadsheet has like 250+...but I'm 3800 back...obviously most buyers aren't on RU, but is it like 1/4 of the amount of buys? 1/8th?

Providing how many cameras sold is definitely proprietary company information. We can't expect RED to give us that information, nor would their company lawyers allow it because of competitors, but just a nice shipping estimate based on order date would be cool. For instance, instead of saying Scarlets ship starting in Dec, they could say, something like "in stock" items expected delivery is 30 - 45 days after order for cameras, and specific accessories. Stating cameras start shipping some date doesn't define how many cameras ship, just that some will.

I assume Red can offer something like this if they believed they could do estimates like that. We can only assume that shipping is so far behind at this point for some things, they don't feel comfortable even stating that.

 

[Arnold F.]

Exactly. They're getting $15K from me. I don't think an ETA is asking too much of them.

"Their more major customers" is actually us. RED sells directly.

 

[Jeff Lower]

Exactly. They're getting $15K from me. I don't think an ETA is asking too much of them.

Imagine the folks that are waiting on Epics.

 

[Robert Cauble]

I see both sides of this, but I think what some of the guys here are saying is that if you can set ship dates of Dec 1st, for instance and start taking orders letting customers know this date, then as a responsible company, they can figure a number of orders each day (which can be back estimated too) and there is a way to clearly estimate the ship dates of Scarlets or at least let us know if we order by a specific time and specific hour, what to expect as an estimate within a week or two. All companies have a logistic team which figures things out regarding delivery and expectations of delivery. It is just a good business practice and I think we all want it. BUT; The thing I think we all need to realize is that no matter how much people complain about this aspect of RED, it won't change obviously until they are ready to change it.

RED has made that clear with specifically not answering this question of delivery dates, so we can all respect that for whatever reason and simply wait for our products or choose not to buy. I will wait as I feel it is well worth it for the products I ordered.

I agree that RED is not conducting it's business with the level of professionalism that many of it's more established competitors do. I hope they are really trying to improve this, since they have offered so much to the film industry from the tech end but are still tainted by this lack of professionalism.

I have my first RED on order, and the process has been frustrating. It is definitely not something I have experienced before. Though, I expected some degree of this so I can't complain too much...

 

[Robert Cauble]

Huh? Even after Jim publicly stated that he wasn't going to be announcing things before they are ready to ship... is a BILLION times MORE transparent than any other company I've ever seen. I LOVE it.

The only aspect I'd like to see improved in this area are more "official" published tech specs. LOTS of them. I'm a vfx guy and need them. Otherwise I have to google things and find some random dudes posted notes in some obscure thread in the Netherlands.

I agree with Gene that they should post technical specs and white papers for the community. ARRI does this very well and it is a HUGE help to technicians, especially ones who work with different camera systems on a regular basis. I don't see why RED cannot offer this very soon. It is exhausting and frustrating to have to search this forum to find information that could be presented in a white paper.

 

[Phil Holland]

Out of curiousity, what exact technical specs are you referring to that can't be found on the Scarlet product site or here:
Scarlet X Data Sheet

I want to know so I'll add them to the Data Sheet page

 

[Robert Cauble]

Out of curiousity, what exact technical specs are you referring to that can't be found on the Scarlet product site or here:
Scarlet X Data Sheet

I want to know so I'll add them to the Data Sheet page

Phil, thanks for putting together the Scarlet X Data Sheet. It is a great source of information and it is easy to read. i already have it on my ipad to use for reference during any future Scarlet shoots.

To answer your question, i can offer a couple of recent situations where a better technical document would have come in handy:

A few days ago, before a tech call, I was searching for a chart which represented the Epic's maximum frame rates per a given resolution/compression ratio in HDRX mode. I'd remembered seeing it on a thread before, but I unfortunately did not save it. I know that this information could have been calculated from information in the Epic manual, and I could have made a sheet like Phil's, but it great to have this information put out by the camera manufacturer.

Also recently, i wanted to know what variable changes necessitate a black shading. I called RED and a technician told me black shadings are needed for every resolution/frame rate combination above 48fps, and that calibration results are stored in the camera's memory as long as the build stays the same. He was quick and confident in his response and i felt good going into the prep.

I think this information is important to enough people in enough situations that it warrants being put out in a technical paper by RED. It would also save a few calls and many hours of people sorting through threads.

I know that everything at RED is subject change and that things do change quickly for the better, but I would like for the technical changes and procedures to be better documented. At times I feel like I am entering into Videodrome while searching for information in these threads.