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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

REDRAY Comments

Nick Shaw said:
I was imagining that DPXs for the .RED encoder would not be Cineon, but would be in display space.
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Yeah but what "display space" is REDRay? And why not include a simple color/gamma transform as part of the encoder? If they don't define a REDRay colorspace that's expected then you'll have no idea how your material will be presented on different displays. Surely the RED Projector is calibrated to some colorspace. Most TVs are rec709. Most computer monitors are sRGB. If you distribute one .RED file I would hope it could target projectors, TVs and computers all with one file. Which means I hope that REDRay can do a live conversion to the target display based on a menu setting.
 
Can't wait to hear what red has to say this upcoming month about the RedRay.
 
Axel Mertes said:
Hi Wayne,

you mix something up here. CineForm made a *proposal* for a FPGA based CineForm encoder, but never actually implemented it. We had been discussing such development with them, but at that time overall resources were too limited to accomplish the task. However, its not out of question that someone is working on something like this - it would still make a lot of sense.

All the other codecs are simply nowhere near the option set of CineForm. And codecs such as ProRes, which is still mainly an Apple-only thing including gamma issues, are IMHO not the right alternatives. DNxHD is evolving, but its DCT based as far as I know and therefor will never be as efficient as Wavelets are.

The BIGGEST point that most users out there miss is the FACT that with wavelets you can decode a lower resolution at full quality with less resources. Neither DNxHD nor ProRes can do this. The latter codecs are fine if your system keeps up. But in 4K you need to fully decode all 4K images or drop frames. With wavelets you can decode at lower resolutions, saving serious processing resources. That is IMPOSSIBLE with any DCT based codec.

So when you view a wavelet based file at 1/4 size (1/2 width, 1/2 height), you see a perfect 4:1 downscale, averaging 4 pixels 4K resolution into 1 pixel 2K viewing resolution. Its not skipping lines or rows or anything else. Its just *perfect* quality downscale. This is the amazing nature of wavelets.

Cheers,
Axel
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Hi Axel, thanks for answering. Interesting, it's been many many years, but I thought that they indicated it was under active development of the tablet like field recorder, and had it's own product and specifications page. If this was vapor then that is unfortunate. The truth is, integrated with a sensor and control software, it would have been great competition for scarlet fixed and definitely Bmc.

Thinking out loud, with mass core arms, or gpu and open cl, instead of fpga, it might be possible to do the open camera platform I proposed several years ago running cineform with every type of actively ongoing sensor and camera head interface to slot into products as the main board. Nearly 8k consumer sensors are now out there.
 
Rob Anderson said:
Have these been shipping yet?
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The official response is Things are going great and they are sorry for the delay. That's probably to much information to give out but they spilled the beans and will have to live with the fallout. Loose lips sink ships. The good folks at Odemax, Red's partner, know better. They have uttered not a word other then they had the flu at Sundance. Not a word about any content, any progress, nothing. Do you think Odemax is dead? That the independents wouldn't buy Odemax's commission rates? Its now mid February. When do you think the Redray will start shipping and when will Odemax rear its head let alone LAUNCH. I am a consumer wanting 4K content and a means of playing it other than through a computer.

The Bombsquad guys will say nothing about what's happening with the Redray, why the delay, an expected shipping date. Nothing, and the party line is that we are not Odemax. Its almost like we may here from them again, we may not. Its not part of Red or the Redray. I said almost. For the consumer, Odemax is part of the package.
 
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I agree, Odemax is a key part of the package. I was pretty disappointed after sharing the hype and information to many of the installers and high end retailers in my area, then having nothing happen. Unless I was mistaken, Odemax was supposed to be announced at Sundance. I told a friend of mine who was at Sundance to watch out for it and he didn't hear a word about it. It is disappointing for Red and Odemax, both of which I wish the best for but also made me look pretty ill-informed in the eyes of people who depend on me as a consultant....and now silence.

Larry
 
I wonder... on what will people watch 4K content? What will you watch it on?
 
You would think given all the good things about Red, they would realize that with the Redray they now have non film professional consumers as customers and they have a need to keep such better informed. Its rather degrading to treat us with pablum answers. They could be forth coming with at least a little info like we expect shipment around even though that could slip. We are on their side. But we have no clout and I fear not a lot of respect. If I treated a client that way, I wouldn't expect to keep the client.
 
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With or without ODEMAX, I think it would be better to have REDRAY in hands already. We can ad hoc our own content and do carry and play until the distribution network is up and running. Understandable the network is taking time to get off the ground. Lots of possible hang ups there. But if the hardware is finished (and the .RED codec too), then I'd love to see the units shipping.
 
Rob Anderson said:
With or without ODEMAX, I think it would be better to have REDRAY in hands already. We can ad hoc our own content and do carry and play until the distribution network is up and running. Understandable the network is taking time to get off the ground. Lots of possible hang ups there. But if the hardware is finished (and the .RED codec too), then I'd love to see the units shipping.
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Agreed
 
Rob Anderson said:
With or without ODEMAX, I think it would be better to have REDRAY in hands already. We can ad hoc our own content and do carry and play until the distribution network is up and running. Understandable the network is taking time to get off the ground. Lots of possible hang ups there. But if the hardware is finished (and the .RED codec too), then I'd love to see the units shipping.
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We don't know how tied into the ODEMAX service the REDRay is. We do know that it will play content not from ODEMAX, but we don't know if initial set-up requires it or what do we?

getting units out there seems a lot less attractive if they won't set up without it.

This all assumes that 100% of the delay is with ODEMAX, and not with the REDRay or the .RED codec. If the problems there then sending out boxes isn't a good plan either.
 
Peter Proniewicz-Brooks said:
We don't know how tied into the ODEMAX service the REDRay is. We do know that it will play content not from ODEMAX, but we don't know if initial set-up requires it or what do we?

getting units out there seems a lot less attractive if they won't set up without it.

This all assumes that 100% of the delay is with ODEMAX, and not with the REDRay or the .RED codec. If the problems there then sending out boxes isn't a good plan either.
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I think that's a given. If the box won't work without ODEMAX (which I find incredible to imagine), then of course. But otherwise, we know it will play directly loaded content. I'd rather have that than nothing and with it, I would absolutely be spreading the gospel, showing off work, and utilizing .RED playback. Already a few missed great opportunities to do just that in fact.

Not throwing fuel on any brewing fire. Just saying I'd rather have an ODEMAX-less box than nothing right now. ODEMAX for me all along has been a 'grow and see' kind of thing. ODEMAX not in my battle plans yet. But .RED playback definitely is.
 
Standing by and I'm hoping these will ship soon, would love to have the .RED encoder. I'm hoping the REDRAY player will be here soon for delivery. I ordered quickly the day it went live for ordering. Any update would be greatly appreciated, one way or another.
 
Rob Anderson said:
With or without ODEMAX, I think it would be better to have REDRAY in hands already. We can ad hoc our own content and do carry and play until the distribution network is up and running. Understandable the network is taking time to get off the ground. Lots of possible hang ups there. But if the hardware is finished (and the .RED codec too), then I'd love to see the units shipping.
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Yes, please let us have a update as soon as you possibly can. Thank you.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
I wonder... on what will people watch 4K content? What will you watch it on?
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A Sony VPL-vw1000ES and I have been for about one year. Of course, I am watching upscaled 720p, 1080i, and 1080p. I want to watch 4K content shot in 4K or higher and down resezed to 4K if needed. I am not very computer literate though I do have an email machine which I can use to post on forums.

It would appear that Red will start shipping when the player and software are ready. A brilliant deduction.

I would assume the problems are major, horrific because of the silence from Red. Now I suspect this is not the case but what would be the reason for a complete lack of communications to its customers? Keep it secret from player competitors?. A race by others to market? Like a statement Enron made. I am not saying that is what is happening. Red is a strong good company but why act like that. A statement that things are going fine and they are sorry for the delay is a complete lack of communication. I assume its even worse for Odemax. Though I think :) that things are not really that bad re the redray and I suspect its last minute decisions to add certain capabilities, when a company refuses to have meaningful communication with its customers, I think thinking the worst is the safest assumption. Re Odemax, its the only assumption that rationally could be made given the announcements they made when it was first announced. Absolutely nothing and a web page that I could create with my non skills and email machine. And I have enough info to make it. Its designed so that content can be sent to Redray players and you can charge a fee for such content and Odemax will collect the fee for you and keep a big chunk of it. Kind of an Amazon but with only Amazon stores (private stores authorized by Amazon). I think its a great idea and I will buy content from them if it ever happens. I have my doubts. I would not use them if I were a content producer given the level of their fees. I did all the work, I took all the risk, and now they want a 30% cut. Hell. Amazon only charges about 9%. I don't get it and I suspect competitors will quickly arise with the same services but with a much lower price model.

Red has facility overhead. All Odemax needs is some office space in an industrial park, phones, email machines, servers (they don't even need those, they could use server services I would think) and an offshore bank. What it needs are source providers. I hope I am wrong but the perception I get from nothing communicated from the mega gathering of independentt film producers other than we and they have the flu indicates a company making excusses. Silence is for lambs, not consumer customers.

I think non communication is an easy strategy based on assuming the audience is stupid or simply has no other alternative.
 
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Red Ray will undoubtably be usable with or without Odemax. independent content providers should be able to post download links and distribute their own content if they can provide their own way of billing and security, or just post if for free download.
The Red Ray Player will also play back using 1080P displays, so in the interim, users can view 4K content downscaled to their current displays, which according to Red, out performs Blu-Ray handily. Not saying everyone and their dog will run out to buy a player to watch on their current screens but many Home enthusiasts, Art house theatres, etc will likely jump in before they upgrade to 4K displays and projection. The latter is dependant on a solid distribution network linked to the player, like Odemax.
If Red expects Red Ray to receive mass appeal, they need a big splash from Odemax to make it happen. So far it's a lingering fizzle. Odemax seems to be holding things up but who knows what's really behind the delay in announcement of the service. I do know that I am holding off in any plans or discussions with those I consult for until there's something concrete coming from Red/Odemax. Too bad because a couple of retailers here were poised to jump on this.

On a side note, I suspect that Red may be opening up Red Ray boxes and jerry rigging more features and codecs in response to sales discussions and feedback from industry in order to be able to make the box viable and comply with what content providers want in order to secure contracts.

Larry
 
Be like Sony, et al, and package some 4k content with the player.
"TimeScapes" comes to mind. Work a deal with Tom Lowe.
 
Do they read any of this? Do you think they have a staff member who reads these things and let's the chiefs know what is going on.

I suspect this is more like a group therapy session with respect to non existent (at this time) products and complete silence from the a partner who wants to enter the distribution business and distribute on lt to red playback devices.
 
Jarred Land said:
The LG's can look good Jeff , but be prepared to go through a bunch of them to land on one you are happy with. Right now there seems to be a tremendous amount of inconsistency with their panels. I know they are working on fixing that for round 2. The Sony and Toshiba are ahead of it by leaps and bounds
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That's somewhat peculiar since LG manufactures the panel used on both their own and Sony's 4K TV. Sony reps have freely admitted it, too.
 
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