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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

REDRAY Comments

Andrew_HD said:
Use JPEG2000- this is what REDCODEC is :)
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I don't think it's as simple as that...if encode times are as long as they've indicated, it's doing a lot more processing than a simple JPEG2000 encode (which makes sense given the apparent quality vs bitrate).
 
Richard Fox said:
Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong about your assessment of its image quality. I along with many others have seen it in earlier iterations and it's mind blowingly good.
I believe that REDRAY is based on fractal image compression so forget any notion you have about what bit rate it takes to get a certain quality level.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDCODE - nothing special :)

REDCODEC is simply JPEG2000 and used rather for I frame, high bitrate formats to deliver mastering quality. You need long GOP codec, not only I frame based one to achieve high compression- if RED developed REDCODEC long GOP variation than fine, but even so nothign can deliver mastering quality for 4K at 20Mbit and this includes still being developed h265 standard. And NO- I'm not a cameraman, I'm a compressionist, who has been doing encodes for DVD, BD, DCP, webclip for last 7 years, so I know what I'm talking about.

Are you talking about quality represented by this clip:

http://red.cachefly.net/Tattoo2K.mp4

is this what you describe amazing?
 
Gabe Conroy said:
I don't think it's as simple as that...if encode times are as long as they've indicated, it's doing a lot more processing than a simple JPEG2000 encode (which makes sense given the apparent quality vs bitrate).
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JPEG2000 DCP encoders are also slow- it's computing intensive+ you deal with 4K resolution.
 
Brandon J.F. said:
I think you may be in for a surprise...
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You will get a Nobel prize in maths if you do it :) , but please first define "mastering/amazing" quality. Is it relatively comparable to BD quality or how does it compare to files from RED camera itself (debayered and saved as ucnompressed)?
 
Andrew_HD said:
I think there is a bit of confusion here. REDRAY can play REDCODEC files and MP4 files, which are not more than AVC+AAC audio files in MP4 container. As far as I understand 20Mbits which everyone talks about there is for MP4 format and this is more like streaming quality- like Vimeo, Youtube etc.- high compression, but small files easy to manage, including streaming.
REDRAY can also play REDCODEC files and these (I assume) are something like files from RED cameras- low compression with mastering quality, but than bitrates are no near 20Mbits.
REDCODEC is simply JPEG2000 and used rather for I frame, high bitrate formats to deliver mastering quality. You need long GOP codec, not only I frame based one to achieve high compression- if RED developed REDCODEC long GOP variation than fine, but even so nothign can deliver mastering quality for 4K at 20Mbit and this includes still being developed h265 standard. And NO- I'm not a cameraman, I'm a compressionist, who has been doing encodes for DVD, BD, DCP, webclip for last 7 years, so I know what I'm talking about.

Are you talking about quality represented by this clip:

http://red.cachefly.net/Tattoo2K.mp4

is this what you describe amazing?
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I certainly wouldn't call the video quality represented by this clip amazing as compared to the 4K master http://red.cachefly.net/Tattoo2K.mp4
What I'm referring to is the quality I saw at the REDUSER party at NAB a few years back. As I recall they were showing the RED demo reel on REDRAY at 10mbps. While it wasn't the equal of the DPX version it was shockingly good. The fact that they've bumped the data rate up to 20mbps tells me that REDRAY is everything that RED says it is. While I certainly don't know the specifics of the .RED format, I'm pretty darn sure that there is something very special going on. I for one can't wait to get a REDRAY player and a 4K display in my hands.
 
Richard Fox said:
I certainly wouldn't call the video quality represented by this clip amazing as compared to the 4K master http://red.cachefly.net/Tattoo2K.mp4
What I'm referring to is the quality I saw at the REDUSER party at NAB a few years back. As I recall they were showing the RED demo reel on REDRAY at 10mbps. While it wasn't the equal of the DPX version it was shockingly good. The fact that they've bumped the data rate up to 20mbps tells me that REDRAY is everything that RED says it is. While I certainly don't know the specifics of the .RED format, I'm pretty darn sure that there is something very special going on. I for one can't wait to get a REDRAY player and a 4K display in my hands.
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Well- RED may be great team, but currently there is nothing more efficient than still being developed h265 codec, add to this fact that REDCODEC used in cameras is nothing that special neither, so they would have to spent years (as they are small team) to come up with something which would be way better than h265. This would have to be way better to create mastering quality at 20Mbits- as I said- you would get Nobel prize for such a achievement :)

10mbits for 4K - heh...fine for streaming.
 
I started and found that 2.5MB refers to .RED format, so I removed wrong (assumed) info.

Lets ask RED team- what are the typical PSNR values for new 20Mbits codec?
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Wow. There's some pretty uninformed BS being flung about here.
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I agree. It is shameful that we've become accustomed to this kind of bullshit. So many talking out the wrong end that you can't whack 'em all... So it becomes a political campaign with lobbyists and pundits. Trolls here and there as always. I much prefer to be associated with a company like RED who just delivers the right specs and let's the image do the talkin.
 
Just saw an interesting comment on a story about a new 4K TV:

I just saw this 4K TV in the flesh and it is AMAZING. I've always thought there's not much better than 1080p, but hands down the best picture quality I've ever seen. However, only the 4k content looked great, the 1080p looked like garbage. A few years and more 4k sources, this will definitely be a great leap forward in TV resolution.
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I am wondering about quality issues due to the limitations using third party displays. With the bite rate limitations of HDMI, it means that displays other than the two Red projectors will not be able to take advantage of full available bit depth.

Questions.
1. Would you consider or have you already begun the process permitting a third party manufacturer of direct view 4K screens to install an internal version of Red Ray which will allow them to maximize the available bit rate?
2. Is Red working on a 4K Red Branded direct view display?

Thanks guys, it's been really exciting watching history being made over the last few months.

Larry
 
JPEG 2000 encoding uses a mathematical "trick" that chops up and reconstitutes the image data. This method retains more good image data per compressed bit than DCT variants but requires a ton of processing overhead. It uses an entropy encoding strategy that essentially scaffolds higher frequency detail on top of lower frequency detail and in J2K each level is represented so various extractions can be accessed.

My pure conjecture guess is that Graeme figured out a way to either skip levels or represent intermediate levels with less precision to save data load. If so, I'm guessing the only extractions available may be 1080 and 4K, which is viable in their controlled ecosystem. I would further speculate that there may be ways to create more complex formulas that can carry more unique data per data "word" (sic) to further increase efficiency but with the drawback of requiring even more processing muscle - enter the RedRay hardware. By creating hardware using ASICs designed to accelerate only one specified format RED can leverage an integration of hardware and software portfolios to do their "sleight of hand". DId they pull it off with the RedRay? Looks like we will all see for ourselves soon enough. Knowing these guys, I don't think they would back a 20mb codec if it didn't look very good. Why would they? They would destroy their own brand? Not bloody likely. If they saw a 80mb/s codec that looked way better I think they would have backed it instead.

Whether RED achieves the image quality they claim might be a matter of debate in some circles (growing smaller by the day but not dead yet) but anyone who thinks Jim, Jarred, et al aren't "freakin' obsessed with image quality has neither eyes nor ears. They're kind of fanatics about it and I for one really like that about them ;-)

Looking forward to doing a bit of A/B testing when RedRay drops, we will all know quickly enough.

Cheers - #19
 
Andrew_HD said:
Don't expect BD quality out of 20Mbits 4K encodes- REDCODEC is not more efficient than AVC and Blu-rays are encoded with 20-35Mbit for HD res using encoders designed for this, with tweaked segment encodes over 2 or more passes. Relatively it will be way <BD quality- there is no magic and as much as RED can do good encodes out of their encoder you can't win with math :)
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Andrew, all I can say is boy do you have a suprise coming ....

... you have forgotten the impact of Graeme's magic pixels.
 
Andrew_HD said:
How 4K will look at 20Mbit- well with sources from RED it will look okish, relatively similar to HD video on eg. Vimeo.
It will be no near DCP spec quality for HD, but as a streaming content it should be ok mainly due to fact that RED footage is quite clean and it's easy to encode...
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Just repeat what I said above...

... I guess that film originated and other non-RED content that we have shown at RED Studios on 40 ft screens from Sony SXRD don't count then.
 
I'm not intending to pick on anyone, it's normal to offer your experience of what the current industry practice is...

... but this distribution workflow really does change the understood rules of the game...
 
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