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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

REDRAY Comments

Pawel Achtel said:
I would like to use RR to preview 3D dailies in 3D. Do I need one or two RedRays to play two channels (3D) R3D content? And, if so, does it do simple HIT. Or, do I need to convert to .RED files firrst in RedCine Pro-X?
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From the lack of response to various posts, I'd assume that no matter how many Redrays you have, you also need an awful lot of time to compress your material before you can play anything. And Redray does NOT play R3d files, it only plays the .RED files after they have been generated.

This is not a device that is designed for use in a dailies pipeline. It is a device for final distribution files of finished material.
 
Mark Toia said:
Yeah! Become a theater owner !
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As someone who did a lot of research into the concept of an independent theater operation to do what so many people here seem to think is hampered only by distribution agreements, I can say that people here seem very naive about the actual costs of creating, maintaining, operating, and somehow making profitable an independent theater. The concession revenues aren't only about the revenue split with distributors. They're a necessary part of making a theater work financially. There are all kinds of costs not only for building acquisition and equipment, but for maintenance, licenses, publicity, and a lot of other things that go along with operating a public space. A new distribution model in and of itself does very little to change the realities of the cost of running a theater. Hence my earlier comment about the dream vs. the reality.

I'm not trying to dampen the obvious enthusiasm here for what is clearly an interesting new approach. But I really see the whole model as ultimately being much more about streaming to individuals than it is about theatrical exhibition unless some very big players become involved. And current distribution agreements make that unlikely, at least in the near term.
 
M Most said:
As someone who did a lot of research into the concept of an independent theater operation to do what so many people here seem to think is hampered only by distribution agreements, I can say that people here seem very naive about the actual costs of creating, maintaining, operating, and somehow making profitable an independent theater. The concession revenues aren't only about the revenue split with distributors. They're a necessary part of making a theater work financially. There are all kinds of costs not only for building acquisition and equipment, but for maintenance, licenses, publicity, and a lot of other things that go along with operating a public space. A new distribution model in and of itself does very little to change the realities of the cost of running a theater. Hence my earlier comment about the dream vs. the reality.

I'm not trying to dampen the obvious enthusiasm here for what is clearly an interesting new approach. But I really see the whole model as ultimately being much more about streaming to individuals than it is about theatrical exhibition unless some very big players become involved. And current distribution agreements make that unlikely, at least in the near term.
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This.

With any 'theatre', you have a limited geographical radius within which your product needs to have sufficient 'want-to-see' that'll compel that audience to get into a car and drive to the theatre to watch your work. After paying a good chunk of cash ofcourse. If your work isn't star or buzz driven, that's hard to make happen.

Which isn't to say this won't work. It just won't work within the carcass of the current eco-system. There'll be more evolution to come. All in all though, glad RED is driving that evolution. Or is that revolution? ;)
 
M Most said:
I'm not trying to dampen the obvious enthusiasm here for what is clearly an interesting new approach. But I really see the whole model as ultimately being much more about streaming to individuals than it is about theatrical exhibition unless some very big players become involved. And current distribution agreements make that unlikely, at least in the near term.
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This echoes a conversation I had today and is almost precisely the same conclusion they drew as well -- 'they' being an independent theater operator here in Las Vegas. They were wildly enthusiastic about a streaming 4K receiver in the home and thought the RED RAY is a great value, a wonderful looking device, and the pairing with ODEMAX for content delivery is all awesome... but they also thought where RED RAY would thrive the most is in the home, commercial displays, corporate offices, and other 'small venue' spaces. I'm not entirely co-signing that conclusion, just offering what another person shared and how it does fall in line with what 'M Most' says here.
 
I've been reading every page of this thread but either it hasn't come yet or I skipped right over it; have we heard what the compression ratio is for .R3D to .RED? Will the .RED files be larger, smaller, or approximately the same size? Also will the generation of play-ready .RED files benefit from RED Rockets, etc?
 
Stuart English said:
Understood, but you could take your REDRAY player to them, and show that what your 4K image quality capabilities are (even to a 1080p display)

Then maybe they would buy one or two REDRAY players too...
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Soooooo how significant is the difference in playing 4k to a 1080p display versus a a 4K originated 1080p Prores to the same 1080p display????

Is it really an outstanding difference or discernible only to a pro?
If I show a corporate client both will they really jump for a Redray player? Or do we really need a 4k display/projector for this to shine?

whoop
 
M Most said:
As someone who did a lot of research into the concept of an independent theater operation to do what so many people here seem to think is hampered only by distribution agreements, I can say that people here seem very naive about the actual costs of creating, maintaining, operating, and somehow making profitable an independent theater. The concession revenues aren't only about the revenue split with distributors. They're a necessary part of making a theater work financially. There are all kinds of costs not only for building acquisition and equipment, but for maintenance, licenses, publicity, and a lot of other things that go along with operating a public space. A new distribution model in and of itself does very little to change the realities of the cost of running a theater. Hence my earlier comment about the dream vs. the reality.

I'm not trying to dampen the obvious enthusiasm here for what is clearly an interesting new approach. But I really see the whole model as ultimately being much more about streaming to individuals than it is about theatrical exhibition unless some very big players become involved. And current distribution agreements make that unlikely, at least in the near term.
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Come to Portland and ill take you to several new venues that host microbreweries to t
4 40. Seat venues that serve gourmet food and show mostly indies you never heard of and which are always
Packed ... The studios will always dominate the the multiplex but there is a future in theatrical experience ce
And the technological cost of entry keeps getting cheaper and cheaper -

"If a little dreaming is dangerous then the safest thing to do is to dream more, to dream all the time"
 
Joe Pontecorvo said:
It really seems like a .RED would be a great format for off-line editing if all the major edit systems would support it.
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That's another thing... I hope we'll see .RED support from the major editing systems (I'm not really worried about Adobe..they will support it at some point..)..
 
WesG said:
Soooooo how significant is the difference in playing 4k to a 1080p display versus a a 4K originated 1080p Prores to the same 1080p display????

Is it really an outstanding difference or discernible only to a pro?
If I show a corporate client both will they really jump for a Redray player? Or do we really need a 4k display/projector for this to shine?
Click to expand...

4K down sampled to a 1080p displays is indeed noticeable. I often make 4K high bit rate .MP4 files for review and those can playback in realtime on modern systems (even my laptop). I would describe it as a "crisper" image. I'm actually looking at one at the moment on my 46' review monitor to the left of me at the moment.


Marek.Vesely said:
That's another thing... I hope we'll see .RED support from the major editing systems (I'm not really worried about Adobe..they will support it at some point..)..
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Joe Pontecorvo said:
It really seems like a .RED would be a great format for off-line editing if all the major edit systems would support it.
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It's been mentioned already that there will be 3rd party support for the .RED codec. Export and ingestion would be great. Can't wait. Hopefully developers will get that out soon. In the meantime you'll be able to transcode your finished 4K project through the RRencoder plugin in REDCINE-X Pro once it's available.
 
I do not see .RED as a format for "ingestion" - this is highly compressed codec optimized for 4K playback, decoding of which requires dedicated HW (the REDRAY). Do you remember how H.264 was a nightmare (and still is) for proper NLE editing? The .RED would be in-editable in my honest opinion...

But as a final output/delivery format - I would like to see all major players supporting it...
 
Peter Majtan said:
I do not see .RED as a format for "ingestion"
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Well I agree and am most interested in its potential to be a high quality delivery format. However, I think there will be desire to use it to ship dailies and I can certainly see an editor slamming it into a timeline in the future perhaps at a minimum for review. I know plenty of people shipping out 2K and 4K ProRes that's being slammed into timelines. I can see real potential with the .RED codec at post houses as well. Especially jobs that utilize more than one house. I'm not talking about avoiding the raw or 16bit workflow at all. Merely sharing data, works in progress, or finished shots between studios/companies during the course of post production. I have been delivering final 4K content, shipping drives, and FTP'ing all over for a long while now. The new .RED codec is small in filesize and produces a very high quality image. There's potential on that penetrating more that just final delivery.

I'm an optimist perhaps. I see potential.

Which makes me wonder if .RED files can be assembled without re-encoding. I wonder.

Initially the focus will and should be on final delivery. With powerful encryption and such small filesizes .RED is enticing enough already.
 
The key advantage of RR is superior image quality at 2.5 MB/s. But as long as .RED decoding requires dedicated hardware (RR) I don‘t see any chance in the b-2-c market even if RED will sell the RR for $500 in a year or so.
Is there a way that Odemax streams lower compressed versions - let‘s say 5-10 MB/s - and no dedicated hardware would be required? Clients could play .RED files directly via Software plug-in from any modern 2012+ Computer/laptop.
 
Bob Gundu said:
From the sounds of it, .RED files will take a super long time to encode which may hinder using it for dailies.
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Which is why I think a future update for the camera will include these as proxy-files a long side of the R3D files.

I like the news of the RedRay, but without a 4K display I'm not seeing myself buying one... so I'm still waiting for news about the Red Projector that includes the RedRay, when, how, what -about that will be the bomb I'm waiting for
 
Rob Anderson said:
.R3D is 42MB/s so that's almost a 17-1 compression ratio, versus .RED. So a 5TB .R3D will encode down to approximately 300GB .RED? Pretty crazy. : )
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I think Stuart once posted that the onboard 1TB HDD will hold 100 hours of .RED movies, so put another way, each movie @ approximately 2 hours would translate into 50 movies if my math is correct and thus, about 20 GBs per movie.
 
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