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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

REDCINE-X BUILD 31 BETA ( With D.E.B )

Isaac Marchionna said:
I'm sure others have discussed it before me. My thinking is that I'd rather have that option turned on in the meta data by default, than have to ASK an editor to manually enable it as they edit.

RCX is great and all, but to be totally honest the less I ever have to use it the more the RED workflow becomes seamless.

The metaphor I use is how all DSLRs that shot RAW used to come with a god awful RAW processing app. How many of us still use those manufacturer bundled RAW apps anymore? Anyone? *crickets* We don't, as Adobe Camera Raw (and to another extent Capture One) have made that a seamless system with Photoshop. So to me reverting back to RCX is introducing complexity.

If the DEB switch in the metadata can be enabled on record, that's badass. If the camera can apply the DEB effect to the SDI output...badass. 422HQ (I wish Epic output 4444) is important and this would be a huge win.

Either way I'm happy to see this fix come out.
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It seems like you're forgetting that D.E.B will be a part of the SDK and eventually make its way into every software package that reads .R3Ds. At that point, it will be exactly like your ACR example.

The RCX-only situation is temporary and naturally appeared there first because it's RED's own software.



David Battistella said:
There will be times you do not want this on.

Battistella
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For those who haven't tried D.E.B. yet, this is important to note. See below.



Isaac Marchionna said:
I think thats what we wanted from the start. My personal opinion is that if the camera can do DEB real-time via the 1080p 422 output via the SDI, that makes DIT/on-set capture to things like DNX/ProRes extremely valuable since while the red can vary from subtle to 'ugh' (dark shadows especially) if that can be meta-data for RAW, but baked into SDI output, you've just made the Dragon's DEB feature VERY valuable.

That solution doesn't violate RED's intention with the power of RAW, nor does it create a situation where you HAVE to tell an editor to go in and enable DEB on every shot/take. The DP should just enable that feature on a project by project basis, or even shot by shot if need be, so that it tells RCX/Premiere/Resolve/Whatever that DEB should be set to ON.
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Nils Ruinet said:
So, if DEB is so great, why make it optional ? Why not make it standard in RCX ? People who don't know about it will not check this feature and will render their footage without it, that seems counter-productive... Or are there any downsides to DEB ? I haven't tried it yet...

And regarding the in-camera DEB requests, I think some people are already recording footage to Prores through external recorders, even without DEB, so if it is possible to activate DEB in camera, it would probably be great for them to be able to record better footage.

Anyway, downloading the beta now, looking forward to trying it on some footage I shot recently :)
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D.E.B. works wonders but it may not always be the best looking solution (at least, as it stands right now). You may not know you prefer an alternate means of dealing with noise until you can look at things and make comparisons in detail.

I don't think it's ready to be baked into the SDI output at this point. It could use a little refinement in when, where and just how much it turns red pixels gray. It may be a little too aggressive for some things at the moment, IMO. I prefer a Denoise value of 2 or 3 over D.E.B. for skin.
 
Trevor Meier said:
Man... this is why I love RAW. So awesome.

Anyone run across a situation yet where you *wouldn't* want to use DEB?
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Yes, in the first 5 minutes with it. Sent some R3D's off to Graeme. It actually was a shot with no red noise...
 
I'm a little confused, is DEB just a post side thing? I thought a camera build was coming that would take new OLPF dragon and give substantial noise floor improvements after Red engineers did better profiling.
 
Isaac Marchionna said:
I think thats what we wanted from the start. My personal opinion is that if the camera can do DEB real-time via the 1080p 422 output via the SDI, that makes DIT/on-set capture to things like DNX/ProRes extremely valuable since while the red can vary from subtle to 'ugh' (dark shadows especially) if that can be meta-data for RAW, but baked into SDI output, you've just made the Dragon's DEB feature VERY valuable.That solution doesn't violate RED's intention with the power of RAW, nor does it create a situation where you HAVE to tell an editor to go in and enable DEB on every shot/take. The DP should just enable that feature on a project by project basis, or even shot by shot if need be, so that it tells RCX/Premiere/Resolve/Whatever that DEB should be set to ON.
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ok.

What if I now told you to drop all the max FPS specs by 10-24 FPS so that the onboard processing used for that could be allotted to DEB processing? Or maybe now you could have DEB in camera but the least compression you could shoot would be 11:1 instead of say 6:1?

What at I am getting at is there is only so much processing power to go around in the matchbox. Add to that that DEB processing only affects FULL resolution and you can understand what it might be taking to do it in post on your nMBP.

I don't know what the intricacies of the onboard processing power is in the epic dragon, but I imagine resources are tight and the features everyone wants and have come to expect are many. Physics must come into play here as well.

So while I am not against anyone wanting it all, kinda like the way a child wants ice cream, I do try to balance it with the physics and reality of the situation.

Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors, but they don't put them all onto one cone at once. :)

Anyway, I hope you get what it mean.

Battistella
 
Matt Ryan said:
Yes, in the first 5 minutes with it. Sent some R3D's off to Graeme. It actually was a shot with no red noise...
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That is what I am talking about. It's not an all the time thing. It's for specific and I would say more extreme situations.

Battistella
 
David Battistella said:
That is what I am talking about. It's not an all the time thing. It's for specific and I would say more extreme situations.

Battistella
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At this point, a good denoise could handle better color rendition and detail than the DEB. It really looks like a sort of a "red channel blur".

Now we could open a DENOISE VS DEB thread.

There are certainly situation where you wouldn't want a DEB rendering.

Pat
 
So DEB does not work with the almost 7,000 dollar Rocket-X graphics card? Also, errors out on GPU debayer? Anyone else having this issue?

Tried on 3 different computers, same result.
 
Hi Charles,

D.E.B. is only available for CPU/GPU currently. Can you please email redcinex at red dot com with the errors you are getting?

Thanks,
David
 
I think I noticed the same thing on my end Matt. It seemed to increase magenta in the whites just a tad. My shot had a lot of noise at 800 ISO but it wasn't so much red sparkles. Anyways I Need my SSD module back so I can test thoroughly ;)

Matt Ryan said:
Yes, in the first 5 minutes with it. Sent some R3D's off to Graeme. It actually was a shot with no red noise...
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I think it's important to keep in mind that this tool isn't about reducing noise, it was to enhance blacks by removing spotty red specks. I don't feel you'll need to use it that often. It's nice to know that its there when it does creep up.
 
It's very true bob.

as I mentioned several times in various threads, DEB does not alter sensor noise pattern, just tidies up red dot noise that appears in some shots. That is why you probably only want to turn it on for some shots. Good to know it's there, but I rarely need to use it.

Battistella
 
Exactly ;)

with that in mind, I know there are a ton of apps out there for denoising footage and I actually own Neat Video, but I wish there was a really nice denoising algorithm built into Redcine-X Pro kind of like a Neat Video so we could do everything efficiently in one spot and than transcode everything out. Would be so awesome :)

And not to beat a dead horse as I have said it before and I know it's not really an option. But I would LOVE to have baked in denoising as an option on board my Dragon as an option. But I also understand the hesitation in not doing this...I just wish it was there for when I am simply handing off footage to clients and have no control in post. The fact of the matter is that non-red owners tend to be newbs when it comes to the workflow and properly processing footage. But I do think swapping OLPFs will help in this matter.

Regardless, I am always happy to see Red constantly trying to improve our cameras and footage :))

Bob Gundu said:
I think it's important to keep in mind that this tool isn't about reducing noise, it was to enhance blacks by removing spotty red specks. I don't feel you'll need to use it that often. It's nice to know that its there when it does creep up.
Click to expand...
 
Adam Johnson said:
with that in mind, I know there are a ton of apps out there for denoising footage and I actually own Neat Video, but I wish there was a really nice denoising algorithm built into Redcine-X Pro kind of like a Neat Video so we could do everything efficiently in one spot and than transcode everything out. Would be so awesome :)
Click to expand...
I agree, such a denoiser, optimized for RED's sensors, would be great. But the request for adding support for OFX-plugins comes in mind too.
 
Jarred Land said:
I know the temptation is high to make D.E.B happen in camera and call it a day.. but it really is best to do as much as possible in the color science.. it is the power of REDCODE RAW.

D.E.B is pretty incredible and Graeme has done it once again.. but D.E.B has improved 5 times over during the last month, and I am sure it will get better. If it is locked in camera, whatever you shoot will be locked with whatever the achievements were at that time. If it is in Processing then you get the best of the current best ... and apply it to old footage and new.

Another example is with these Changeable OLPF filters. Some people may switch filters along the way or during a shoot and forget to set that filter in the camera settings. If D.E.B ( and other color science ) was locked in camera to the wrong OLPF, you could have the wrong results. In RAW, it doesnt matter if you shot the entire month with the wrong OLPF setting... you just change the metadata in your post tools and your back on track.
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This is a really compelling argument. It has completely convinced me.
 
THANKS!
 
Agreed! :)

Yes, a denoiser optimized at cleaning up Dragon footage would be phenomenal. Get us close to where A.D.D takes us with still photos would be amazing. But something along the lines of Neat Video optimized for the Dragon sensor. Would be so bad ass!


Maik Müller said:
I agree, such a denoiser, optimized for RED's sensors, would be great. But the request for adding support for OFX-plugins comes in mind too.
Click to expand...
 
DEB LITTLE TEST

DEB LITTLE TEST

Taking that the image was a little underexposed, follows a quick comparison of RAW, DEB and DEB on ADD.

Lighting was mixed, fluorescent on white bounce, HMI for back light and some tungsten (model from profoto heads) for the warm temps...

I am surely impressed that the image is so organic ... this jpeg sample is from a 1800x1100 crop on the 6kFF, redcode was 11:1. I am impressed with DEB works its a charm!... thanks Graeme!

On DEB plus ADD i did sharp to equalize to other samples visualy, since without any sharpen ADD softens a little with its magic....

Latest BETA firmware on camera, latest BETA RCX...

Love RED for the BETAs...
 

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