Red "Weapon" Name Poll - Change it or not?

[Brian Boyer]

Indeed I do. Please follow this link Terry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_threshold

It has been a while since I had Statistics in college but I don't think the Election Threshold is measuring the statistical probability of the outcome of an election. It's used to determine if the number of votes received was big enough for a party to have gained a seat in government.

Election polls are about a probable outcome based on a statistically significant sample size. In U.S. elections, most polls are <1,500 people and used to represent 200 million people, with a standard deviation +/- 2-3 percentage points.

http://www.pollingreport.com/ncpp.htm

 

[Scott Crawley]

There is so much real world straight talk in the rest of this post to like, but I choose to focus on the silly because that is how I view the entire subject.

Many musicians also refer to their instrument as their Axe. Does that make them serial killer or terrorism suspects worthy of FBI and CIA scrutiny? I think not.

This entire debate is ridiculous and anyone who actually chooses a professional tool based upon what people call it is equally ridiculous. I don't make that statement to point out anyone here, because I think most of what has been said on the topic is pure rhetoric. I just wish we could dial the rhetoric down a bit.

I play guitar and I often tell people who see my guitar collection that my "weapon of choice" is usually my jade green flame maple top PRS Custom 24. It is indeed a cultural thing and sometimes a political one. As the new camera concept continues to unfold before us, I'm really seeing that "Weapon" is an apt name for it. Just as "Epic" fit the last major evolution of the RED system. Saying that, however, many people are sensitive to certain terminology and for that, it does make one pause and wonder if RED made the absolute best choice for the name. However, naming things is often difficult and no matter what they do here, they are not going to please everyone.

That said, I would like to see the arguments against the name remain focused on core beliefs and not delve into compulsory fears or or isolated incidents or security anecdotes. Fact is, TSA does not have a problem with "Weapon" or the camera it's stamped on. This is already confirmed. As I understand it, not only have they been specifically notified and asked this, but prototype "Weapons" have already traversed TSA security stations. And presumably others as well.

 

[Elsie N]

No, but product web pages work as well as demonstrating that it's a camera is pretty good too. Assuming that it's ever a problem. And if it is, I can assure that will almost be 99.5% guaranteed that it's not about a name stamped on it. I had to demonstrate my RED One the first time I flew with it and I was just going from Denver to LA. The TSA guys just wanted to see it as none of them had ever seen a camera like it. But it's not like they thought I was carting around a nuke in my backpack even though that's what it often looks like. Yes, I see stories and little anecdotes about how certain product names can cause a ruckus with various security agencies -- mostly air travel. But I fly all over the place. Never had a problem with any name stamped on any product. Not the "Bomb EVF", not my "Briefcase Bomb" computer, not my "Terrorist" distortion and fuzz pedals.

Never had a problem hauling around the EPIC w/ Bomb EVF. Not even with a huge part of my kit being made up of NATO rails and clamps, RED "Gunner" shoulder mount, bipod, pistol grips, etc.. Never been an issue anywhere in the USA or Canada or the UK. I had to demonstrate the camera once in Hawaii and once in Amsterdam. In Hawaii I was pulled for a random security screening, so I also had to show them that my phone and laptop turned on and appeared to function normally. A couple of the military guys thought it was pretty cool how half my camera kit was compatible with their AR-15's and then we got into a discussion on firearms and which AR-15 makes and configurations we like best. Personally, I like my Black Rain AR, but that's another discussion altogether.

Now if you're flying into war-torn or third world areas of central Africa and "security" is an illiterate cross-eyed thug with an AK-47 slung over his shoulder and a machete on his hip, that may very well be a different story. But once again, I'll wager that the word "Weapon" stamped on the front of your super awesome and expensive looking piece of kit is the least of your worries.

90% of getting through security checkpoints, TSA or otherwise, is attitude and demeanor. If you're acting all nervous, and you've tried to discretely tape over some word on your fancy looking camera gear, then you're flagging yourself for extra attention. With most security people in modern and developed places, they are often coming over from law enforcement or are ex-miliitary personnel. It helps to know how to talk to them and if you know typical procedures, and how to make their job easy on them -- as it pertains to you -- then it's usually pretty easy to breeze right on through.


I can understand the aversion some people have to the word "Weapon" and I totally respect their opinion on the matter. And we are seeing a culture clash, often a language barrier with some of our foreign friends. For may of us however, "Weapon" is not a bad word or an offensive concept. It is often a term that is thrown about to for a preferred tool or method by which to compete or ensure success. I play guitar and I often tell people who see my guitar collection that my "weapon of choice" is usually my jade green flame maple top PRS Custom 24. It is indeed a cultural thing and sometimes a political one. As the new camera concept continues to unfold before us, I'm really seeing that "Weapon" is an apt name for it. Just as "Epic" fit the last major evolution of the RED system. Saying that, however, many people are sensitive to certain terminology and for that, it does make one pause and wonder if RED made the absolute best choice for the name. However, naming things is often difficult and no matter what they do here, they are not going to please everyone.

That said, I would like to see the arguments against the name remain focused on core beliefs and not delve into compulsory fears or or isolated incidents or security anecdotes. Fact is, TSA does not have a problem with "Weapon" or the camera it's stamped on. This is already confirmed. As I understand it, not only have they been specifically notified and asked this, but prototype "Weapons" have already traversed TSA security stations. And presumably others as well.

(Applause)... for a well thought-out post.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

This poll may say one thing, but we have a vocal minority vs. a larger community that doesn't give a shit. Poll sat here for two days before I clicked my vote... And the votes not representing a change to the name are split into two categories. In the end, it's a name. If you don't like it, don't buy it or pop the little name badge off your camera. Maybe we can get Ryan over at W00d3n Camera to make little wood replacement badges for the front of the camera that say something else. RED already has him on their shit list anyway.

If Jim and Jarred want to call it "Weapon" then that works for me. I'm a bit surprised with the sudden outcry over one name (like we had with the Bomb EVF too, I guess) when the entire company is steeped win militaristic warrior aesthetic and it's tactical this and ordnance that. RED bought REN-MAR studios and painted everything various shades of military / battleship grey, they have black-out and camo netting everywhere in their stores and on RSH Stage-4 where they do all their demos and testing. Jarred drives an olive-drab Porsche. I can only see this whole attitude and the current outcry against it as one of the many reasons why Jim will never take RED public and open up to investor control.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Well stated, as always, Jeff. (referring to the post prior to the one above - just for clarity) -

Even if we are on opposite sides of the name issue, I, too, like the idea of a debate based on the marketing issues - real or perceived - and how we can contribute to the understanding RED might have of its user's preferences. I knows that many people like the name. Some are indifferent, and many do NOT like it; ranging from mild disdain to outright revulsion.

As for the poll - it was an idea floated by Jarred, perhaps in jest, and jumped on by Matt. To argue the result based on statistical science is silly. We may not have gotten an absolutely rock solid, absolute numerical idea of the results but it is pretty darn hard to make the case that the majority is FOR the current name. And it is equally hard to suggest that the results are completely useless because a larger sample "could" swing the other way. We have the results we have. It's the only actually data point other than anecdotes and strength of personal opinions.

In the end, only the collective opinion inside RED matters for the decision. I applaud them for listening and being willing to consider the situation. The name will change or it will stay the same. Life will go on.

 

[Daniel Stilling]

That has nothing to do with poling samples. It's about constituency after the results are talked up. This is more what we are looking at:
http://www.pollingreport.com/ncpp.htm

"There are about 200 million adult or voting-age Americans. But the average poll has a sample size of 1,000 adults. This means that only one person in 200,000 will be included in any one national or state poll. To put it another way, it would take 200,000 polls with samples of 1,000 for pollsters to get around to all Americans -- and this assumes no one is called twice."

 

[Scott Crawley]

How about Candy Assed Unicorn Fart?

Maybe we can get Ryan over at W00d3n Camera to make little wood replacement badges for the front of the camera that say something else.

 

[Elsie N]

A true poll is one where the pollsters seek out a demographic... not one where the demographic seeks out the poll.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

A true poll is one where the pollsters seek out a demographic... not one where the demographic seeks out the poll.

So, you are saying the results have absolutely no validity? No indicator of anything? Keeping in mind that no demographic within REDuser was singled out for inclusion or exclusion.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I'm not sure anyone is saying that, Terry. Some of us are saying let's not be so self important and grandiose. RedUser likely represents the squeaky wheel... an extreme minority, and this poll represents them (Or rather, Us)

It's all about perspective, and that is something this debate is sorely lacking.

So, you are saying the results have absolutely no validity? No indicator of anything? Keeping in mind that no demographic within REDuser was singled out for inclusion or exclusion.

 

[Elsie N]

I

So, you are saying the results have absolutely no validity? No indicator of anything? Keeping in mind that no demographic within REDuser was singled out for inclusion or exclusion.

Actually yes. I am saying the results have no validity.

For all we know the voters have no stake in the results. Maybe they use Arri cameras or Sony cameras, and may never own a RED. But maybe they are on REDuser just for grins. So as non-owners they shouldn't be allowed to vote on "family" matters.

Plus, as I stated, the poll is attractive to those against the name while those who are indifferent or are completely happy with the current name aren't passionate enough about the name to read, much less vote, in the poll.

Thus the results are skewed.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Scott - really, I have only said that my own opinion is that I don't like the name myself. The other point I have been making is that the poll indicates I am not alone. What seems to be happening from there is that people want to suggest that the opinion of the group, as captured, however crudely, by the poll - which was asked for, perhaps in jest but still posted, by Jarred - is irrelevant. In the end - also as I have stated many times - is that RED will decide.

I am not sure why calling for reconsideration of the name is "important and grandiose" any more than asking it to remain is. There certainly is a lot of belittling of sincere objections going on, suggesting quite often that anyone who doesn't like the nap,e must be a wimp.

Personally, I will support the RED infrastructure going forward without regard to the name. But, I think it would behoove those who are "losing" the poll results to just take it for what it is rather than being "sore losers." A few are using the lack of statistical rigidity to completely negate the information, which is silly.

 

[DC Chavez]

There are a lot of assumptions built into these statements. For now, it is pure speculation. We really don't know how far along RED is with any of this.

And Jarred was the one who (perhaps jokingly) said, "Maybe we should take a poll."

There are zero assumptions.. You think RED would go this far into the process of unveiling a camera and not have trademarks filed?

http://www.red.com/trademarks

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Sure, but trademarks aren't the whole process. If there are 5 prototypes with these logos and no production facilities set up, there's not that much invested. Let's not argue about something neither of us knows. If RED "CAN'T" change it, for pragmatic reasons, they won't. If they DON'T WANT TO change it, for any reason, they won't. If they asked for input and want to and can act on it, they will. Does that about sum it up?

 

[Adam Becker]

"For all we know the voters have no stake in the results. Maybe they use Arri cameras or Sony cameras, and may never own a RED. But maybe they are on REDuser just for grins."

I kind of doubt that this discussion is being fueled significantly by 'outside agitators.' I think a fair number of red camera owners dislike the name "weapon" and prefer it not be printed or engraved on their cameras.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Actually yes. I am saying the results have no validity.

For all we know the voters have no stake in the results. Maybe they use Arri cameras or Sony cameras, and may never own a RED. But maybe they are on REDuser just for grins. So as non-owners they shouldn't be allowed to vote on "family" matters.

Plus, as I stated, the poll is attractive to those against the name while those who are indifferent or are completely happy with the current name aren't passionate enough about the name to read, much less vote, in the poll.

Thus the results are skewed.

Your conclusion is based on one "for all we know" and two "maybe's".



Option #2:


- Camera owners (who wrote themselves "I don't want my camera"...) don't feel very good by the wording and are not very thrilled to stick tape on $30K tool just to hide the tool's branding.

- Stupid comments on shoots directed at Red are facing another fuel

- At the time of "BOMB" "tummyaches" some thought ahead, warned about potential outcomes and tool/brand perception, observed "warm squishy love monster" online happy happy fun, went later through damage control between colleagues when what they foresaw and warned about happened, lost jobs due to "that's not a serious camera", and are watching the whole scenario and denial fest all over again.

 

[Elsie N]

"For all we know the voters have no stake in the results. Maybe they use Arri cameras or Sony cameras, and may never own a RED. But maybe they are on REDuser just for grins."

I kind of doubt that this discussion is being fueled significantly by 'outside agitators.' I think a fair number of red camera owners dislike the name "weapon" and prefer it not be printed or engraved on their cameras.

You "think" your way and I "think" my way. One of us is probably wrong... and my money is on you. '-)

 

[Elsie N]

Your conclusion is based on one "for all we know" and two "maybe's".



Option #2:


- Camera owners (who wrote themselves "I don't want my camera"...) don't feel very good by the wording and are not very thrilled to stick tape on $30K tools.

- Stupid comments on shoots directed at Red are facing another fuel

- At the time of "BOMB" "tummyaches" some thought ahead, warned about potential outcomes and brand perception, listened to "warm squishy love monster" online happy happy fun, went later through damage control between colleagues when what they foresaw and warned about happened, and are watching the whole scenario and denial fest all over again.

You "think" your way and I "think" my way. One of us is probably wrong... and my money is on you. '-)

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Kids, chill down. Uncle G actually have a vague interest in the poll, but don't pull your verbal weapons out to fight, 'cause then I might pull my moderator peacekeeper skills and bury this thread six feet under...

Cheer up and vote!

 

[Elsie N]

Sohhhhhh Uncle G... just out of curiosity, what forbidden words would someone have to say that would cause you to close this thread? Hmmm????