Red "Weapon" Name Poll - Change it or not?

[Gunleik Groven]

I guess I'd write a "RED digital cinema camera"

 

[Scott Crawley]

If you put Weapon on the carnet, aren't you asking for trouble? Why would anyone put that on there if they were not actually claiming a weapon?

Using the slang definition of weapon... I might like to refer to my Weapon as Scott's Big Dick, but I wouldn't put that on an official declaration.

Given the the fact that #thinisin, I just might go with a different name, though that might have looked good engraved on the operator side. The thought of throwing that over my shoulder and shooting hand held with it is an intriguing bit of humor.

My bigger concern is not the badge which can be obviously covered or removed but its whats listed on a customs carnet as a "Weapon" when traveling in remote and already awkward boarder entry points around the world. Im sure 99.2% of RED owners are not going to have a problem but the small percent that travel to awkward, remote and hostile areas this is going to be a very real problem.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

It's a terrible name. I'm (almost) sure whatever it is will be something I want, but the name seems targeted to teenage boys more than anyone else, and will cause me untold headaches at the border. I like "Alexa mini" way better as a name (although I don't love the look of Alexa footage as much as I do Epic, and I certainly don't love how little you can grade it unless you record their super data heavy RAW format).

 

[Tim Morten]

Red Bomb EVF all over again. Bellyaching then was much ado about nothing, bellyaching now is much ado about nothing. Never heard a single travel issue with the Bomb.

 

[Nate Clapp]

I'm against the name. Depending on how good the new body is, it will influence me negatively to upgrading. Market is getting crowded with lots of pretty good cameras. I would be ok with WPN-1. People can call it weapon. Whatever. Also, RED One had two sensor options. And Epic had two sensor choices. That could conceivably make this new one the fifth RED camera. The Star Wars nerd in me would love a RED FIVE.

 

[ErnestoDeCarvalho]

I almost never post. This time it's out of perplexity. I admire Red, and I'm a proud owner of a Red Scarlet here in Recife, Brazil, where many great films have been shot with it. But please, don't call this new body "Weapon". It's a bit silly. I want a world with less belligerence, and not more. Yes, a camera can be a weapon (against domination, against “conventional thinking”…, what-have-you!), but that has a healthy and balanced place in the world of metaphors. When you create a logo called "Weapon", with a skull, and you package this wonderful and sweet thing that is a camera in it, you are investing in a network of signs, feelings, images, ideas, that are extremely bellicose, male-oriented, testosterone-ridden… And you are forcing that onto people. And I, for one, seriously don't identify with that. And I'm sure many other people feel the same way. Some folks here will think/say: “that’s stupid, no one is being forced to do anything, you are not obliged to buy it!”. But that’s small reasoning. In order for Red to continue being able to do the great things that it does, it needs to accommodate different kinds of people, it needs to be open, welcoming… and it does respond to a collective desire. And so it needs to find images, ideas, emblems, that are inclusive of the diversity present here.


We made this possible, we want to continue being part of it. A lot of us would rather not have to buy something called “weapon” to keep that going. So, it is a bit of an imposition to give it that name. Let people invest their beloved cameras with whatever feelings they want to bring to it, don't push it so much... It's not cool, it's not revolutionary, it's backward thinking. It's aggressive (in the bad way) to a lot of people... I'm sure you can come up with a better name. And this not to mention the infinite airport troubles that people like me, who travel a lot, would have with an object like that.


Peace! And congratulations for the wonderful work you do, democratizing hi-end image-making, rendering it accessible more and more to different kinds of people. Let's continue that, in every possible sense.

 

[Nicos Ambatzis]

I almost never post. This time it's out of perplexity. I admire Red, and I'm a proud owner of a Red Scarlet here in Recife, Brazil, where many great films have been shot with it. But please, don't call this new body "Weapon". It's a bit silly. I want a world with less belligerence, and not more. Yes, a camera can be a weapon (against domination, against “conventional thinking”…, what-have-you!), but that has a healthy and balanced place in the world of metaphors. When you create a logo called "Weapon", with a skull, and you package this wonderful and sweet thing that is a camera in it, you are investing in a network of signs, feelings, images, ideas, that are extremely bellicose, male-oriented, testosterone-ridden… And you are forcing that onto people. And I, for one, seriously don't identify with that. And I'm sure many other people feel the same way. Some folks here will think/say: “that’s stupid, no one is being forced to do anything, you are not obliged to buy it!”. But that’s small reasoning. In order for Red to continue being able to do the great things that it does, it needs to accommodate different kinds of people, it needs to be open, welcoming… and it does respond to a collective desire. And so it needs to find images, ideas, emblems, that are inclusive of the diversity present here.


We made this possible, we want to continue being part of it. A lot of us would rather not have to buy something called “weapon” to keep that going. So, it is a bit of an imposition to give it that name. Let people invest their beloved cameras with whatever feelings they want to bring to it, don't push it so much... It's not cool, it's not revolutionary, it's backward thinking. It's aggressive (in the bad way) to a lot of people... I'm sure you can come up with a better name. And this not to mention the infinite airport troubles that people like me, who travel a lot, would have with an object like that.


Peace! And congratulations for the wonderful work you do, democratizing hi-end image-making, rendering it accessible more and more to different kinds of people. Let's continue that, in every possible sense.

I fully agree with Ernesto. There is a ''bad'' feeling in your mouth with WEAPON. There are plenty of words you can choose. Take one for instance, from the animal kingdom ''Red Lion'' ''Red Panther" Red Jaguar'' ''Red Puma'' and mythical ''Red Pegasus'' if you want something powerful and aggressive as well, but 'weapon"?????? Good God???

 

[Terry VerHaar]

You guys who want to spin the current sample size as statistically significant: not going to happen. Random internet calculator does not trump the accepted practice of requiring a statistically significant sample to support a hypothesis. Frankly, the sample itself isn't even random to begin with, and assertions of being "sure" how everyone else feels are not helping.

Let's stick to expressing our personal opinions, and acknowledging them for what they are: one person's opinion. This is Red's product to name, and personally I hope they stick to their guns (so to speak). That's nothing more than my opinion, and I for one won't pretend to know how everyone else feels.

Tim - I get that the poll didn't come out the way you want, so now it's time to say "it doesn't mean anything," "it's inaccurate," "let's throw it out." But, as Daniel has pointed out, it is statistically valid. Not perfect but shows a clear trend. The margin to error is large, which is why I phrased it awhile back that "well over half" when, it really is closer to 80% plus or minus 7.5%. You are trying to invalidate the basic premise because of some inherent roughness in the methods. However, if the poll had come out 55-45, you'd have a point. But when it comes out 80-20, the basic conclusion still holds.

 

[DC Chavez]

Do you guys realize that buy suggesting a name change it will require a whole bunch of retooling on REDs side in order to make this happen? New tools/CAD reprogramming/CNC programming etc will add more cost to the bottom line which will get passed down to us. This isn't even taking into account all the trademarks they filed for the IP behind this camera...

I for one see no problem traveling around the world with a camera named Weapon. Worst case scenario, you will have to power up the camera to show that is in fact a camera and not a bomb or something. As it is, most TSA agents have no idea what it is and always ask questions about my Dragon. A simple smile, one sentence explanation always does the trick and I am on my way.

If you think that changing the name is a simple matter, you guys are wrong.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Do you guys realize that buy suggesting a name change it will require a whole bunch of retooling on REDs side in order to make this happen? New tools/CAD reprogramming/CNC programming etc will add more cost to the bottom line which will get passed down to us. This isn't even taking into account all the trademarks they filed for the IP behind this camera...

I for one see no problem traveling around the world with a camera named Weapon. Worst case scenario, you will have to power up the camera to show that is in fact a camera and not a bomb or something. As it is, most TSA agents have no idea what it is and always ask questions about my Dragon. A simple smile, one sentence explanation always does the trick and I am on my way.

If you think that changing the name is a simple matter, you guys are wrong.

There are a lot of assumptions built into these statements. For now, it is pure speculation. We really don't know how far along RED is with any of this.

And Jarred was the one who (perhaps jokingly) said, "Maybe we should take a poll."

 

[Tim Morten]

Tim - I get that the poll didn't come out the way you want, so now it's time to say "it doesn't mean anything," "it's inaccurate," "let's throw it out." But, as Daniel has pointed out, it is statistically valid. Not perfect but shows a clear trend. The margin to error is large, which is why I phrased it awhile back that "well over half" when, it really is closer to 80% plus or minus 7.5%. You are trying to invalidate the basic premise because of some inherent roughness in the methods. However, if the poll had come out 55-45, you'd have a point. But when it comes out 80-20, the basic conclusion still holds.

No, a sample size at the percentage you are talking about is not even close to statistically valid. Repeating that you think it is does not change facts. Give me a 5% sample, not wishful thinking combined with gross misunderstanding of statistical significance.

 

[David Battistella]

How many pixels in this sample size? I mean to say, aren't you guys splitting hairs here?

Battistella

 

[Tim Morten]

The danger of insufficient sample size is an incorrect conclusion. Depending on whether you treat Red users (50k+) or Red owners the sample, we're at a small fraction of 1% to perhaps 1%. If we used that sample size to elect our presidents, we'd be living in a very different nation. "Trends" without statistical significance are very often misleading.

 

[Glen Powell]

The danger of insufficient sample size is an incorrect conclusion. Depending on whether you treat Red users (50k+) or Red owners the sample, we're at a small fraction of 1% to perhaps 1%. If we used that sample size to elect our presidents, we'd be living in a very different nation. "Trends" without statistical significance are very often misleading.

This is actually being monitored by Price Waterhouse & Cooper; and this particular poll is of the non-binding shits and giggles type... No need to lose sleep or get all worked up.

*** it's a bloody camera name for F's sake ***

 

[Terry VerHaar]

No, a sample size at the percentage you are talking about is not even close to statistically valid. Repeating that you think it is does not change facts. Give me a 5% sample, not wishful thinking combined with gross misunderstanding of statistical significance.

Tim, do you know how many samples they typically use to poll in presidential elections?

Done here. The poll says what it says,

 

[Tim Morten]

I agree the debate is overblown... just pointing out the dangers of using forum polls to make product decisions. There are some ignorant folks out there who believe that any sample is big enough to represent the whole community, but I trust Red is smart enough to see things clearly. I respect their choice whatever it may be.

 

[Tim Morten]

Tim, do you know how many samples they typically use to poll in presidential elections?

Done here. The poll says what it says,

Indeed I do. Please follow this link Terry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_threshold

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

So what you're saying is we print this out and show it to every customs official and border agent that we cross.

No, but product web pages work as well as demonstrating that it's a camera is pretty good too. Assuming that it's ever a problem. And if it is, I can assure that will almost be 99.5% guaranteed that it's not about a name stamped on it. I had to demonstrate my RED One the first time I flew with it and I was just going from Denver to LA. The TSA guys just wanted to see it as none of them had ever seen a camera like it. But it's not like they thought I was carting around a nuke in my backpack even though that's what it often looks like. Yes, I see stories and little anecdotes about how certain product names can cause a ruckus with various security agencies -- mostly air travel. But I fly all over the place. Never had a problem with any name stamped on any product. Not the "Bomb EVF", not my "Briefcase Bomb" computer, not my "Terrorist" distortion and fuzz pedals.

Never had a problem hauling around the EPIC w/ Bomb EVF. Not even with a huge part of my kit being made up of NATO rails and clamps, RED "Gunner" shoulder mount, bipod, pistol grips, etc.. Never been an issue anywhere in the USA or Canada or the UK. I had to demonstrate the camera once in Hawaii and once in Amsterdam. In Hawaii I was pulled for a random security screening, so I also had to show them that my phone and laptop turned on and appeared to function normally. A couple of the military guys thought it was pretty cool how half my camera kit was compatible with their AR-15's and then we got into a discussion on firearms and which AR-15 makes and configurations we like best. Personally, I like my Black Rain AR, but that's another discussion altogether.

Now if you're flying into war-torn or third world areas of central Africa and "security" is an illiterate cross-eyed thug with an AK-47 slung over his shoulder and a machete on his hip, that may very well be a different story. But once again, I'll wager that the word "Weapon" stamped on the front of your super awesome and expensive looking piece of kit is the least of your worries.

90% of getting through security checkpoints, TSA or otherwise, is attitude and demeanor. If you're acting all nervous, and you've tried to discretely tape over some word on your fancy looking camera gear, then you're flagging yourself for extra attention. With most security people in modern and developed places, they are often coming over from law enforcement or are ex-miliitary personnel. It helps to know how to talk to them and if you know typical procedures, and how to make their job easy on them -- as it pertains to you -- then it's usually pretty easy to breeze right on through.


I can understand the aversion some people have to the word "Weapon" and I totally respect their opinion on the matter. And we are seeing a culture clash, often a language barrier with some of our foreign friends. For may of us however, "Weapon" is not a bad word or an offensive concept. It is often a term that is thrown about to for a preferred tool or method by which to compete or ensure success. I play guitar and I often tell people who see my guitar collection that my "weapon of choice" is usually my jade green flame maple top PRS Custom 24. It is indeed a cultural thing and sometimes a political one. As the new camera concept continues to unfold before us, I'm really seeing that "Weapon" is an apt name for it. Just as "Epic" fit the last major evolution of the RED system. Saying that, however, many people are sensitive to certain terminology and for that, it does make one pause and wonder if RED made the absolute best choice for the name. However, naming things is often difficult and no matter what they do here, they are not going to please everyone.

That said, I would like to see the arguments against the name remain focused on core beliefs and not delve into compulsory fears or or isolated incidents or security anecdotes. Fact is, TSA does not have a problem with "Weapon" or the camera it's stamped on. This is already confirmed. As I understand it, not only have they been specifically notified and asked this, but prototype "Weapons" have already traversed TSA security stations. And presumably others as well.

 

[Elsie N]

I agree the debate is overblown... just pointing out the dangers of using forum polls to make product decisions. There are some ignorant folks out there who believe that any sample is big enough to represent the whole community, but I trust Red is smart enough to see things clearly. I respect their choice whatever it may be.

Yeah, this isn't really a poll but more like a place for the more passionate anti's to register their position. I didn't vote in the poll (didn't even read the thread until this morning) and I suspect most are indifferent to what's on the camera and are spending their forum time trying to learn what's in the camera.

I do applaud your trying to keep it real.

 

[Nick Fury]

It seems that controversy generates interest and any press is... Nevertheless, in the Cinematography world of manufacturing and selling cameras, if a net loss of sales occurs because of a correctable, simple issue, that is a seemingly precious loss, with potentially exponential further losses, in perpetuity. This is a time in the industry, to try to please the client base, it would seem. OTOH, I do so enjoy self determination...

I would be happy to volunteer to chair RED's appellation department-hey, I have 5 kids and countless pets/favourite inanimate objects as well...

Thank you very much

Fury