RED V-Raptor Versus V-Raptor XL

[Brody_B]

Seems like a good time for a recap on some of the new accessories mentioned in the QnA.

 

[Nick Vera]

I believe I heard Jarred say the XL will have an internal e-ND on the live stream? Is that correct? If so, doesn't e-ND's cause issues with Polarizers? serious question.

 

[vincent kardasik]

Interesting take. Keep in mind you can get the small camera with the electronic ND in a PL mount that will rigidly mount beyond the RF Mount.

I swear I’m really looking forward to the new cameras but those new ND mounts thing is what get me the more amped.
I really can’t wait to know more about what Red will provide!!!

 

[Alex Waugh]

Serious question. If Red have a first party E-ND coming for the Raptor that is controllable in camera, why would anyone buy the Breakthrough Photography version? I could understand if the mount was switchable between many cameras or if I used the drop in filters over a few bodies, but most cameras have built in NDs these days.

Am I missing something? No doubt its a great looking product and I like all the involvement members here have had with it - I'm just a bit lost.

 

[Mark K.]

Apparently the boot time for the Raptor is 45 seconds. Which is as slow as my old Alexa Studio was (and boy, did you FEEL those slow boot times). With the heavy power draw that's been mentioned (and short battery runtimes that will come with it) I suspect Raptor might need a hotswapping battery accessory added to it, to keep things convenient.

Which is gack I was hoping we could avoid.

 

[Edward Saltau]

Interesting take. Keep in mind you can get the small camera with the electronic ND in a PL mount that will rigidly mount beyond the RF Mount.

The XL, really hard to tell without dimensions, doesn't seem to be much larger, if it is at all, than a Mini.

Look, I’ve had a successful last 5 years filming wildlife on red cams. Love my helium. I don’t want to come across as a hater, but the more I let this camera sink in, the more disappointed I am.

Few thoughts:
- anyone with a very basic knowledge of Red would have been able to tell you that the biggest issue with dsmc2 was nd filters, boot time and red dots on the sensor flare. I’m not necessarily saying that these are everyone’s three big issues, but even people with a cursory interest in red are aware of them. To only have one of these addressed is staggering to me. (Assuming boot time is 45sec as said above)

- you’d be across this Phil, let’s say I want to the raptor in a shotover with the CN20. Firstly, maybe red’s ND mount is solid and high quality enough to handle the cn20. However, I still can’t get down to clear ND. Say I’m in Africa, can’t get out of the vehicle to pull the filter out as the light fades (probably impossible without a serious de-rig). The idea that the ND mount, if sturdy enough would be equivalent to internal NDs doesn’t hold up. Solution: get the XL. Except the size increase excludes the gimbal I want to use. No worries, go for the kippertie mount you say! Unfortunately there’s no communication from lens to camera with the kippertie PL. essential for that lens.

- the dsmc2 lens mount is one of the real strengths of the system. I don’t understand the benefit of going to RF. The % of people using RF glass must be pretty small.


I’m sure the image is incredible and the frame rates are great. I’ll probably be using this camera for most of the next 5 years. But the fact that I’m already pissed off at some of the decisions is incredibly frustrating. Does anyone who tests the camera give serious feedback? Or is it mostly gratitude for the opportunity to use it? I mean, who seriously used the camera and said nah I don’t want NDs in there…? Why ignore what must be the most requested feature by a factor of 10?

Also, is it ridiculous to think it would be fair that we get to see the roadmap for DSMC3? Like, will there be a lowlight Gemini equivalent? Are these 3 cameras to be the whole range? Will the form factor be the same with some alternate sensors?

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

Look, I’ve had a successful last 5 years filming wildlife on red cams. Love my helium. I don’t want to come across as a hater, but the more I let this camera sink in, the more disappointed I am.

Few thoughts:
- anyone with a very basic knowledge of Red would have been able to tell you that the biggest issue with dsmc2 was nd filters, boot time and red dots on the sensor flare. I’m not necessarily saying that these are everyone’s three big issues, but even people with a cursory interest in red are aware of them. To only have one of these addressed is staggering to me. (Assuming boot time is 45sec as said above)

- you’d be across this Phil, let’s say I want to the raptor in a shotover with the CN20. Firstly, maybe red’s ND mount is solid and high quality enough to handle the cn20. However, I still can’t get down to clear ND. Say I’m in Africa, can’t get out of the vehicle to pull the filter out as the light fades (probably impossible without a serious de-rig). The idea that the ND mount, if sturdy enough would be equivalent to internal NDs doesn’t hold up. Solution: get the XL. Except the size increase excludes the gimbal I want to use. No worries, go for the kippertie mount you say! Unfortunately there’s no communication from lens to camera with the kippertie PL. essential for that lens.

- the dsmc2 lens mount is one of the real strengths of the system. I don’t understand the benefit of going to RF. The % of people using RF glass must be pretty small.


I’m sure the image is incredible and the frame rates are great. I’ll probably be using this camera for most of the next 5 years. But the fact that I’m already pissed off at some of the decisions is incredibly frustrating. Does anyone who tests the camera give serious feedback? Or is it mostly gratitude for the opportunity to use it? I mean, who seriously used the camera and said nah I don’t want NDs in there…? Why ignore what must be the most requested feature by a factor of 10?

Also, is it ridiculous to think it would be fair that we get to see the roadmap for DSMC3? Like, will there be a lowlight Gemini equivalent? Are these 3 cameras to be the whole range? Will the form factor be the same with some alternate sensors?

Isn't the Canon CN20 a super35 lens? I assume the V-Raptor XL is full frame like the V-Raptor? I think for that lens you may be better off with a Helium if you need 8K, and wait to see if Red comes out with a S35 8K DSMC3.

 

[Joris v. A.]

- you’d be across this Phil, let’s say I want to the raptor in a shotover with the CN20. Firstly, maybe red’s ND mount is solid and high quality enough to handle the cn20. However, I still can’t get down to clear ND. Say I’m in Africa, can’t get out of the vehicle to pull the filter out as the light fades (probably impossible without a serious de-rig). The idea that the ND mount, if sturdy enough would be equivalent to internal NDs doesn’t hold up. Solution: get the XL. Except the size increase excludes the gimbal I want to use. No worries, go for the kippertie mount you say! Unfortunately there’s no communication from lens to camera with the kippertie PL. essential for that lens.

Don't love it either, but geared Kippertie cartridge sorts the Shotover ND issue just like it does on DSMC2. CN20 needs proper lens support regardless of the mount. Good mount adapter support makes it solid.

 

[Phil Holland]

you’d be across this Phil, let’s say I want to the raptor in a shotover with the CN20. Firstly, maybe red’s ND mount is solid and high quality enough to handle the cn20. However, I still can’t get down to clear ND.

I just wrapped 9 months of helicopter aerials and it's a major part of the work I do on a yearly basis. Trust me, this is on my mind regarding the XL. Specifically because Ranger is too large for the F1 and if the XL is close to that size I'll be muttering in my sleep until I can figure out what's possible. I am hoping in every capacity the XL can fit in there. K1, not an issue.

In very remote areas we can land and swap out to a clear ND, but I 5000% want the ability to control ND and go to CLR in the air, especially for transitional work in major cities where time is tight during that light.

I own multiple cameras from RED and multiple cameras from others as well. At this stage I'll be theorizing about what kit I need to get work done. I am the type of human who will ask RED to "chop off" part of the camera if need be just like we've physically sawed off portions of PV cameras in the past to get them to work, but ideally this is not what happens. All this is fresh on my mind in how it the next camera announcements impact my professional life.

This is a very good point between the regular size V-Raptor and the XL. At the moment I'm leaning on getting perhaps one of each if it pans out that way. I don't think I can do 4X new cinema cameras at the moment (don't need to), but two of the next 3 will be alluring in other directions I'm certain. But a lot of that is 2022 talk.

In my specific case, my next long duration shoot is 60 day narrative. We are in pre-pro now, shoots early 2022, and well...... I need to ruthlessly and rapidly test all the new cameras for theatrical, aerial, and exhibition.

To the point of seeing a roadmap, trust me. I've spoken to all the camera companies. RED moderately dropped this thing out of nowhere, we knew DSMC3 was coming, but this was pretty sudden and the camera is shipping shortly plus we know the next body type that hit next. No big announcement and adn 12-6 month leadup. Publicly at this point nobody is going to talk about things before they launch at this stage in the timeline. Canon just wrapped a test shoot out here in LA and Sony has been shooting with their new camera abroad and stateside recently. Don't know where the new Arri is at the moment, but that's also floating around. These are things we know are coming. Everybody is NDA'd. Not all of those people adhere to those NDAs however. That's been a been a big, big issue among those fortunate to get early looks at anything.

 

[william howell]

A couple of people have been asking about price of the XL, which I'm sure hasn't really been decided yet. Valuation is a strange thing. When we build a robot, we try to utilize as many "off the shelf" parts as possible in order to keep production costs down.. It's no secret that camera companies do the same thing. At some point, as consumers, we have to understand that these markets are extremely competitive, and that in order to stay afloat as a business, the companies have to make money. With RED dropping the proprietary media (which was obviously an amazing source of revenue for them in terms of ROI), and partnering with third parties to produce accessories... The only real source of revenue they will have from this point forward are their camera bodies (for the foreseeable future).

The Komodo is obviously a no frills entry point... affordable to all (relatively speaking), and a brilliant little camera... the Global shutter is totally an action camera extra.. and, for high end productions.. the Komodo is expendable.. like a goPro.. for most of us, it's an A or B cam.

The Raptor is obviously the DSMC2 replacement, with official accessories that allow us to build it out however we want. The pricing is crazy for what you get... but... still.. it's kind of a no frills camera.

The Raptor XL looks to be the first serious stab the company has taken since the RED One to go after the big dogs... as such... I wouldn't expect the price tag to be anywhere under 50k... Heck.. 90k would put it less than most of the Arri offerings. They now have a name in the industry, and can obviously deliver quality products.. (every company has hiccups, especially right now with the global supply chain in utter chaos)... but.. Since the body is much bigger than the Raptor, they can obviously fit in ALOT more computational power... which, in theory, would allow them to do some crazy things that the Raptor just can't do.. There is the chance that the XL might blow away the Raptor in terms of frame rates/sensor readout throughput, in which case.. Dude... but.. even if it puts out the same badass frame rates, Phil has obviously laid out the case that it will be a MUCH more capable camera for large scale productions. Unless RED's business model is to totally obliterate the "industry" competition (which wouldn't be a bad thing), I assume the XL will be priced between 60-100k. They could try to bankrupt Arri by pricing it at 35k, but then I suspect they'd be bankrupting themselves in the process... and... besides the extremely informative and entertaining Jinnimag dude who's obviously a member of this forum, I don't think anyone of us here want RED to go belly up.

 

[M UHRY]

Interesting Thread.

The XL has many great design choices that I'll immediately put to use. Love the details like the SDI and power up front for a 3rd party EVF. Buttons and ports are in ideal places. Of course the internal E-ND is a huge plus.

Nicely Done !

Matt Uhry
www.vimeo.com/mattuhry

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Phil -

You referred to " 3X front facing AUX - ideal for FIZ "

I have the OMOD Command RT on my DSMC2 camera paired to a Teradek (RT Motion) MK3.1 controller.
Do you have any indication if the Raptor XL will communicate with the MK3.1?
Will those 3X front facing AUX be compatible with the RT motors?

Hope you have some insight on this!

 

[Phil Holland]

Hope you have some insight on this!

Don't know. But it's early, early days. Camera is not even out yet. XL is listed for 2022. I also have TRT gear, this is on my mind.

But I think it's safe to say that with those power AUX there something surrounding FIZ or powering other things is going down there. How integrated or not? Unknown.

 

[Pablo R. Basulto]

What I find the gratest is the VV persistence!!

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Don't know. But it's early, early days. Camera is not even out yet. XL is listed for 2022. I also have TRT gear, this is on my mind.

But I think it's safe to say that with those power AUX there something surrounding FIZ or powering other things is going down there. How integrated or not? Unknown.

Great to know this will be on your radar.
Thank you Phil!

 

[Alex Waugh]

It might have already been mentioned but do we have any idea of early or late 2022? Obviously with the world how it is, things can change.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Ii bet XL will be around 55'000.--

Now is it posible that RED uses different media for Komodo and Raptor? Did they made the choice due to the price difference between both medias?

1GB = 1.45$ VS 1.03$

Would have been cool to have one media for all DSMC3 no?

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Funny as Arri is developing a modular camera RED choose to ditch that model.

 

[Phil Holland]

Did they made the choice due to the price difference between both medias?

They clearly made the choice based on data rates and likely what existed at the time. Perhaps a power draw consideration in there too for Komodo. Raptor is nearly 3X the data rates of Komodo and anything DSMC3 to achieve 8K 120 and subsequent ratios related to framerate and resolution.

Should also be noted that the CFx cards Raptor needs literally are coming out right this second, it's ideally wanting the newer and faster CFx Type B 2.0 cards. 1000MB/s is no joke in cards that small. Most CFast sustained drops below 300MB/s. It's also the difference in interface, SATA versus PCI-e 3.0. Two very different planets.

Will be interesting to test older CFx cards, but I suspect buffer interrupts or record stoppage. Some cards I tested crap out around 600MB/s in the past.

I'm waiting to hear hard numbers, but it seems when the foot is on the gas for this camera it's drawing 90-100 watts per hour as well. DSMC2 is 60Wh, Komodo is half of that. This is actually on my mind a lot right now. Have a feeling I'll be investing in some large capacity bricks soon. 2-3 hours is the sweet spot for me when it comes to camera uptime for on set work. Probably a 3 prong approach of 98Wh, 150Wh, and a few big bricks in the 300Wh range. I own mostly 98 and 150.

 

[Bruce Allen]

A couple of people have been asking about price of the XL, which I'm sure hasn't really been decided yet. Valuation is a strange thing. When we build a robot, we try to utilize as many "off the shelf" parts as possible in order to keep production costs down.. It's no secret that camera companies do the same thing. At some point, as consumers, we have to understand that these markets are extremely competitive, and that in order to stay afloat as a business, the companies have to make money. With RED dropping the proprietary media (which was obviously an amazing source of revenue for them in terms of ROI), and partnering with third parties to produce accessories... The only real source of revenue they will have from this point forward are their camera bodies (for the foreseeable future).

Good point. Always interesting hearing from someone who does manufacturing!

Here's my 2c: the Raptor XL will be $40k. OK maybe $50k max if inflation / component shortages persist. But at $50k you are running close to the cost of a used Alexa mini LF... ouch. RED don't want to be there.

Why not more? It's using what looks like a Monstro sensor variant (whose development costs are already paid off) with maybe double the readout channels and probably updated ADC and lower noise pipeline.

I think that RED will stick with the DSMC3 body for a while.

In 2023 (maybe 22 if we are lucky, 24 if we are less lucky) they may swap in a better sensor. They will pay this body's development costs over off the next couple years using a number of different sensor cameras. It's a good body design, it can handle much better future sensors inside.

For example: RED have dual-ISO technology (see: Gemini) - where is it here? There must be a proper dual-ISO high-end sensor coming. Maybe they are waiting to see what Arri and Sony and Canon do. Maybe their sensor isn't ready. Dunno!

The Raptor XL looks to be the first serious stab the company has taken since the RED One to go after the big dogs... as such... I wouldn't expect the price tag to be anywhere under 50k... Heck.. 90k would put it less than most of the Arri offerings. They now have a name in the industry, and can obviously deliver quality products.. (every company has hiccups, especially right now with the global supply chain in utter chaos)... but.. Since the body is much bigger than the Raptor, they can obviously fit in ALOT more computational power... which, in theory, would allow them to do some crazy things that the Raptor just can't do.. There is the chance that the XL might blow away the Raptor in terms of frame rates/sensor readout throughput, in which case.. Dude... but.. even if it puts out the same badass frame rates, Phil has obviously laid out the case that it will be a MUCH more capable camera for large scale productions.

I think many large scale productions don't need massive frame rates or resolution, just good dynamic range, color and workflow, internal NDs, solid PL mount, etc. Look at how Alexa LF cannibalized the Alexa 65. The extra horsepower of the 65 was not worth the hassle.

Unless RED's business model is to totally obliterate the "industry" competition (which wouldn't be a bad thing), I assume the XL will be priced between 60-100k. They could try to bankrupt Arri by pricing it at 35k but then I suspect they'd be bankrupting themselves in the process...

I think this won't cut into Arri that much because many people will prefer the look of the Alexa and the camera body cost is not a big percent of total cost.

This looks like a better Monstro but it's not like everyone was in a mad rush to ditch Alexa for Monstro. And we're talking about the last gen Alexa sensor too!

and... besides the extremely informative and entertaining Jinnimag dude who's obviously a member of this forum, I don't think anyone of us here want RED to go belly up.

Agree there!

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv