RED V-Raptor versus V-Raptor XL - Discussion

[Phil Holland]

Been having a few chats since V-Raptor XL's launch is growing near, August 2022 if all unfolds correctly. Thought I'd make a topic to evoke some discussion and provide some info while I'm at it as a few new unheard-of-as-of-yet features popped up on the XL page. This is also a decision that is bouncing around right now in my head as well.

I'd feel remiss to not quote myself when talking about DSMC2 cameras versus Ranger here, "You can always make a small camera bigger, but you can't always make a big camera smaller".

V-Raptor - Pros and details
- Small, really small for what it can do.
- Native RF Mount, access to the new growing library of RF glass as well as autofocus and other lens features.
- Built in Micro V-Lock Mount, so far only that, but also keeps the camera small.
- Weight = 4.03lbs with nothing on it
- Modular to add more I/O, mostly through the EXT port.

V-Raptor XL - Pros and details
- All in one production solution body. RED is calling this a "unified body".
- Full integrated I/O
- Interchangeable Lens Mount
- Electronic ND Build In
- Wireless Timecode and Genlock (don't know anything about this yet, but hoping for wide compatibility)
- Front Facing Power
- V-Lock or G-Lock Native Battery mount, full size bricks
- Dedicated EVF SDI/Power ports on front
- Extra SDI
- Built in rosettes for handles, arms, grips.
- Likely more robust cooling, maybe quieter even
- Likely stronger antennas for wireless communication
- Likely built in /i data and all that goodness
- Could be dual voltage somewhat like Ranger, but likely 24-26v.
- Weight = ? Unknown now, but I'd guess between 6-9lbs.

For rental houses, I think XL is positioned to play in the field of production cameras as it has that feature set and more. Owner/Op, that's a really interesting question. Production company, I imagine it depends wildly on what you do. Natural History folks, likely want the smaller camera, but will benefit from the XL's built ins.

I'd guess we'll see a E-ND PL Mount down the line potentially for the smaller camera, but that's an unknown. Begs the question of having that build in versus adapter and how much space we have. I'm assuming RED will make an EF Mount for the XL for those who want it. LPL has more glass options recently, so I can see built into the XL being an advantage there.

Both can use the pogo based RMI connector. We are still very much in the dark about EVF plans. It's beginning to look like something will exist, as to what and how it connects, unknown.

There's also a call out to the V-Raptor XL Riser Plate. Don't know what that does yet. I can imagine it's a plate compatible with the new baseplate system, but riser doesn't sound right there if my eyes are estimating correctly.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Thank you Phil for taking the time..

I hope this camera succeeds in a big way but I am not yet sure for us..

My big questions in order of priority are..

1- E-ND
how good is this... ? Optically it has to be without compromise relative to Venice and Arri ....and also at what depth does it sit?
This is a absolute deal breaker

2- LPL
Will there be a smart LPL mount from RED? I'd even accept a Red approved one from Kippertie or Gecko-Cam or Leitz or Arri .....but I will not buy anymore wooden camera mounts as they are crap!
This is an absolute deal breaker as I have 3 different sets of LPL only lenses

Arri signatures
TLS rangefinder Dream lenses
​​​​​​​TLS Mamiya645 lenses

NOTE:
LPL only lenses like Arri signatures or Leitz ELSIE lenses are not going anywhere and will be used on many top flight work.. RED needs a smart mount if it wants to be considered for these productions!
​​​​​​​Also Companies like TLS and now Zero Optic make LPL only rehoused lenses that work perfectly for large format cameras!

3- Weight
If this is heavy probably no thanks! I want to pick it up and be surprised how light it is..
This is potentially a deal breaker

4- Voltage
​​​​​​​24v is great but if it is only 24v then I need to factor another 5k on batteries AND I'd then rather they go for the new B standard rather than Vlock ..

5- Noise
Yes please make it really quiet other wise why is it so big?

6- TC genlock
Great if it is the ambient system for me... if not fine but I have to factor dumping Ambient and moving to a system that I am less happy with..

7- Height of body
I am imagining it needs a specialised 15mm system that has the bars up in front that also is the shim so I can put in a proper 19mm BP (like the Epic one?)
Red should show this asap so the 3rd party guys like Bright tangerine etc can have something ready... I don't want to buy from Vitec!

thanks again

M

NOTES:

these guys have a good smart mount system for Venice.. it passes through data to PL so you can leave it on all the time!

https://www.gecko-cam.com/product/sony-lpl-mount/

 

[Nick Morrison]

What is G lock?

 

[Phil Holland]

Michael Lindsay Just some replies I have on all those things.

1. E-ND, I'm personally hoping for 1-6 stops of bulletproof ND. 1-8 or 1-10 would be amazing. What I'm really hoping for here is even more though. Smooth, stepless adjustment up and down. One day perhaps via firmware "lock exposure" which will adjust it automagically, could be useful. Polarization will be something I'll be looking to avoid.

2. I'm certain there will be LPL Mounts. Hoping w/ data passthrough.

3. Weight, Ranger is 7.3lbs. Expecting it to be around or lighter than that. Under 9lbs is "not heavy" to me personally. Inevitably it would be compared to systems. Alexa 35 lightest equivalent is 6.6lbs with B-Mount Adapter and LPL, 7.5lbs with LPL>PL Adapter. Will be a different story once looking at base plates and mounting hardware though. Both will be close IMO either way.

4. B-Mount is um.... Okay. But we've had 26v batteries for many years now. Wouldn't exactly hinge everything on that mount. There will be B> V or G adapters and if I was a betting man, native V and G module adapters. Mainly I'm curious if it's dual voltage or not as that does one way or another mean something.

5. Ranger is quieter than DSMC 2 camera. Camera size is more to do with additional hardware likely, which is why I think wireless TC/GL, and ND have impacted things. In fact, thinking about it this morning, I think the reason the Interchangeable Mount is upside down compared to before is to clear the hardware and mechanism for the E-ND.

6. I'm hoping it's actually "mode switchable" between Ambient, Ultrasync, etc. That would be wonderful.

7. Looks like DSMC2-like height from base of body. Don't know anything about rod mounts yet, but I think 15 and 19 will be supported somehow, just don't know as of now.

 

[M Harvey]

What is G lock?

I paused on this, too! I'm pretty sure this is gold mount (based on what's listed on the Red page for V-Raptor XL).

Like Michael, I'm curious about the possibility of B-mount batteries. That said, I'm only looking at Raptor XL as a rental item for the time being.

 

[Phil Holland]

Nick Morrison - V-Mount or G-Mount or V-Lock and G-Lock is often used to describe "Gold Mount". Gold Mount was invented by Anton Bauer ages ago, common in the industry. Globally and even nationally, not as common as V-Mount/V-Lock.

Often you'll see rental houses focus on one battery standard or another to not have to invest in many chargers, mounts, etc. Hard one is anything other than V-Lock isn't exactly common on other devices that might use power on set like monitors, lights, etc. G-Lock might be used in that case, but it's not always the case. Don't exactly see many companies supporting B-Mount for other accessories anytime soon, but who knows. All the mounts can be adapted from each other with the right adapter, but that's not ideal for sure.

As far as I've been told B-Mount was created to be a more modern G-Lock/G-Mount battery. Side loading still, locked into dual 24/12v operation, but with the added Data Transfer stuff - SMB-Dat, SMB-CLK, ID. V-Lock already supports some data transmission for years. G-Lock famously does not.

 

[Daniel Bichler]

Thanks Phil for gathering all informations together! I am highly interested in replacing our Monstro with a Raptor XL. But I am asking myself if XL is really worth the 20Ks more compared to the „small“ Raptor with a E-ND or VND lens mount.

I was very happy about the production pack‘s price of 45K. But they’ve changed it to 50K during the last days.

24V would be a worst case for me, unless it can do more frames per second.

Do you think there will be a chance for a higher frame rate?

 

[Phil Holland]

Daniel Bichler - Anytime and we're on similar wavelengths in decision making when it comes down to it.

I think where the XL makes sense is if you look to accessorize it to the same level versus the regular V-Raptor, you're likely going to hit an alarmingly similar out the door price point. And some people will just want the camera "that way". The rub is you can't ever get it to the "other way".

If it's of a similar mindset to Ranger, or at least how I envision it, the 24V will be needed if you are looking to drive the MDR and other things. Don't think the E-ND is the big power draw in this body, but hell who knows. I like the idea of dual voltage and going big when you need it. Alexa 35 actually could have gone this route based on the pure camera versus accessory draw, but I suspect they are more focused to just make 24V going for now and future products. Future being the key take away here.

Frame rates are always really determined by boards, other hardware, sensor design, and data rates. I'm thinking RED is keeping to 120 fps at 8K for this camera, short of anything wild happening. What I will say is with media and cooling being such a thing, there might be room for higher data rates however, but that's all theory based on some CFx cards, a very small amount actually, being able to exceed maximum data rates today. The hardware is already real powerful if it's pushing 8K 120fps and that inspires a lot of thought for now and way down the line.

Right now in terms of pure digital cinema cameras, V-Raptor is the best thing on the market before hitting Vision Research up for much higher frame rates. Just shot a load of 5K @ 192fps and it's just nuts how good that is. Without the crazy chatter, it's currently the most flexible camera in terms of use case scenarios. I more or less know I'm getting one or two more, just don't know if I go small or big.

 

[Vicky Marie Marks]

I'd guess we'll see a E-ND PL Mount down the line potentially for the smaller camera, but that's an unknown.

It was announced/teased when the raptor was first launched, including the ability to translate idata to the rf mount. If that isnt released when XL is, there are going to be a lot of unhappy people who bought into the fact lens data was coming.

 

[Mark Andersen]

I can concur that 5K 192 looks really good. I shot this with some apprehension, but was amazed at how clean it was in a 4K finish.

 

[Mark Saltberg]

I paused on this, too! I'm pretty sure this is gold mount (based on what's listed on the Red page for V-Raptor XL).
https://richbycrypto.com/sv/
Like Michael, I'm curious about the possibility of B-mount batteries. That said, I'm only looking at Raptor XL as a rental item for the time being.

Quite possible.

 

[Phil Holland]

Jarred teased today engaging the E-ND
https://www.instagram.com/p/CenkxV2gYwA/

A lot of unknowns here still, but shows the ND going from Clear to E-ND with the push of a button.

 

[David Dominguez]

ND on Instagram looking pretty good!

 

[Michael Lindsay]

I understand why Red may not want to give too much away pre launch but.. For example the range of ND offered or any cool other features for example (like ramping without shutter change)

but

is it related to the motion mount?

does it polarize the image?

Are there any significant artefacts?

 

[Andrew Reese]

As much as I love RED... you won't be getting a lot of info at pre-order's anymore.

I went through this when the Komodo Stormtroopers dropped (I got one and took a chance and ended up pretty happy), but they did the same FOMO flash-sale approach with Raptor and I decided to wait because not much info was even released on the camera and there was no example footage to even review prior to pre-order and the price was considerably higher than a $7500 Komodo and I am not fond of taking risks with such capital.

Turns out I am VERY glad I waited on Raptor and have decided to pass on that camera due to the sensor artifact debacle, lack of AB mount support, lack of available accessories for months after initial release, and the fixed RF mount which I find most are not fond of for serious work.

So....I have been anxiously waiting for Raptor-XL with proper interchangeable mounts, internal ND (finally), AB battery support, and a more "serious" platform for a build with large lenses and tons of AKS. That being said, I doubt they will provide much info on Raptor-XL either prior to pre-order.

Considering the internal ND is completely new tech for RED (and electronic) and considering the issues with motion mount in the past, and entirely new features like wireless timecode built in, and other features we may not even know about, I probably might have to wait this one out as well, until reviews and actual footage makes it to the general public.

Its a lot to risk to put out +/-40-50k and not even know what you are getting these days.... RED if you are listening, it would be nice if you could be a little more transparent with DSCM3 and I think you would get a lot more pre-orders...

 

[Ian D]

Fair points Andrew, personally I think the xl seems like the way forward but when you have a half price option that creates the same picture in every way you end up thinking well I can just get some accessories overtime to make the non xl raptor comparable, close to double the price for no additional benefits to the image is a poor selling point. I'm holding out and waiting to see if there is some extra magic to the image. Then I think it would be an upgrade to my Monstro. Otherwise Monstro is on par in many ways to raptor. And to say the Monstro is an awesome camera, I have little faults for it. My opinion.

Also how scary is it to commit and then find out the new 8ks35 is the bees kness and in the blink of an eye you are old tec. To be fair to arri they hold their own in giving customers confidence in the longevity of their cameras. I suppose that's why they are generally double the price of a red high end camera. General feeling is confusion, uncertainty and a knowledge that once you spend that 50k you will, you should not check the red website for 4 years just to avoid the fomo.

Kind Regards
Ian

 

[Phil Holland]

Aloha. Got to see the V-Raptor XL body very briefly during a studio visit. Took some grabs of it to get a gist of it's size, I/O, etc.

Wrote up a detailed instagram post, learned a bunch of things rather quickly just by checking it out.

Fist, yes, it's a dual voltage system. 24V and 12V. Works somewhat like Ranger. If you're pushing out power through all the power outputs on the body basically you'll want 24V, particularly up front.

Under the rubber protective cap there are 2X D-Taps.

Body size, damn near identical footprint to Ranger. About the same size too, but difficult to know precise weights.

The body itself feels like it could stop a moving train.

Antennas are for WiFi and ACN. ACN inspired Ambient Lockit compatibly. I imagine this is about the Wireless Timecode and Genlock. Unknown if the system can receive other signals, transmit between cameras, do things like trigger record on multiple synced cameras with one set as master, but that's stuff I'm looking to find out.

Up front I think it's power for MDR + Run/Stop.

If I had to guess versus the V-Raptor smaller body and the XL, probably about a 3+ pound difference.

More soon when I can spend time testing it out.

 

[Adam Beck]

As always, thanks Phil for the info. Definitely intrigued by the XL.

 

[AndreasOberg]

Very interesting info.
For me XL is a bit too large, but the electronic ND filter and switchable mount is cool (and all the rest too!).

 

[Andrew Reese]

Also a little big for my taste/workflow but damn it is pretty sexy and that internal ND will be a godsend to speed up production. Now we just need an AB mount on the back and I'll be happy.