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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red USER Rant...

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I'm on page 8 on that thread... Still no insults, just lots of nice technical discussion.

Still wondering how things 'got mad' on twitter and RED 'got a black eye' from it.
 
Keep reading. I think it was the *perception* (perhaps not entirely accurate) that pro-DSLR threads were immediately closed as per policy, and the more negative view of DSLRs thread was left for 35 pages that might have got the rest of the internet riled up.

There are actually some concepts about technology and budgets and clients and the way people discuss these matters on the internet in all of this that are very interesting.

Bottom line though is that there is little reason to be insulting each other over it. Watching the Peter Jackson video today, I couldn't help but think to myself, what an exciting time to be getting into video! Whatever the budget, whatever the scope, there are now truly amazing tools out there for us!
 
Pietro Impagliazzo said:
I'm on page 8 on that thread... Still no insults, just lots of nice technical discussion.

Still wondering how things 'got mad' on twitter and RED 'got a black eye' from it.
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some posts don't survive public viewing... keep that in mind...
 
Stuart Hooper said:
Watching the Peter Jackson video today, I couldn't help but think to myself, what an exciting time to be getting into video! Whatever the budget, whatever the scope, there are now truly amazing tools out there for us!
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You know, I watched that video as well and all I could think was the same thing. You'll see many of my comments in that thread about how much of a transition period we are in and how the Scarlet and Epic are SO CLOSE to our hands. I am so absolutely thrilled I decided to get into cinematography last year and to have these amazing tools just about here.

And even better, I'm so glad that there are so many people on here just as excited to move into these new areas and explore so much more freedom with the freedom these cameras give us. It's truly remarkable.
 
Tom - Spot on!

Jason - I think part of the confusion about discussing the Red in context with other cameras is the fact that some of this takes place by the Red team. Look at the current and still active Red vs Alexa thread. Why is this ok but not Red vs Canon or Red vs Panavision or whatever. This is probably why we still get threads like that.

Private vs Public - I'm telling you guys, Red has nothing to fear. They have already proven themselves and as someone else mentioned look at the Peter Jackson Message. Red is being used by the top pros in the industry. The fact that someone mentions another brand on these forums should not be an invation for the Red "fanboys" to jump on them and start tearing them apart. In fact if that kind of activity was not allowed those threads that address other cameras might not be so bad at all.

Part of the turn off to Red and this place in general is all this exclusive club type behavoir. You don't see this from any other company. Red has the chops and the props, it doesn't need endless 50 page ass kissing on every damn post made by Jim. In fact it gets tiring to wade through page after page of ass kissing to just find good info. This all needs to be addressed in my opinion.

That House thread was negative to begin with and was started by a Red user. Someone who was upset because their investment in Red gear is being threatened by other cheaper tools. Well when Scarlet arrives there will be even that much more market saturation and simply owning a Red "tool" is not going to get you the job. Your talent is. The fact that Canon was the tool House used really has nothing to do with the problem at all. It's the attitude.

Anyway, great discussion and hopefully we will see some positive changes around here.
 
Just as a note, in certain threads a harsh word from the moderator and deleting some posts may allow the discussion get back to its root without closing the thread entirely.
 
Tim H. said:
Tom - Spot on!

Jason - I think part of the confusion about discussing the Red in context with other cameras is the fact that some of this takes place by the Red team. Look at the current and still active Red vs Alexa thread. Why is this ok but not Red vs Canon or Red vs Panavision or whatever. This is probably why we still get threads like that.
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I noticed this too. I'm pretty sure they have also occasionally posted derisory comments about the poor actual resolution, line skipping and so on on DSLRs video modes, not just the informative technical posts on this issues but in other threads, things like "good enough is a poor professional attitude" etc. This does encourage others to add to the noise here on these forums.

I can understand that the arrival of competing cameras which may take away from your market for owners REDs will be something that those owners may wish to discuss. Since RED One was really the first digital cinema camera to be affordable many owners will be experiencing these kind of gear changes for the first time and some will be dealing with it more wisdom and detachment than others. This forum for RED users is as good a place as any for them to get support and talk it all through.

The real problem from the thread as Tom points out is not so much the flaming of other cameras but the defamatory and insulting comments about the industry professionals who use them. Any good professional, just like the people involved with "House", will choose the best tool for the job of telling the story having given it careful consideration with regards to the balance of technical, budget and stylistic concerns. I would hope that people would give other professionals the respect of assuming that they had gone through this process before choosing to go with a certain camera. It seems however that a few on these forums don't give others that due respect, but this is a forum and flaming does happen on forums, however much we tend to indentify ourselves with the community that exists on them and feel let down by these sorts of posts.

Then there is the issue of these kinds of things putting off people from getting involved with RED and it giving the company a bad name. Well, I can't testify to that actually taking place because I haven't come across any examples of it except a tweet from Phil Bloom and I think he is sensible enough to just see it as noise on a forum thread rather than taking it as something negative about RED and all RED users. Still, since RED pushes out almost all their info through the forums RED User can easily be confused as being the official voice of RED, when in reality it is so many different things, a user forum for one, + a place to collaborate with RED on their development plans, plus a community, + a place to share, learn and ask questions on all of the different topics it lists and a place to shoot the shit off topic.

Perhaps these forums do serve as too many things?

I guess that one way of avoiding these kinds of things emarassing RED themselves would be to separate out the RED announcements and development collaboration elements of the forums into another space altogether, leaving this as a space for all the other things that more suit the title of "RED user". This might save a lot of the wading through deep posts to find tidbits of real info and announcements too.

Whatever the case I trust that the other professionals who are worth their salt will make their camera system rental or purchase decisions based on the creative storytelling, technical production, delivery and budgetary constraints of their projects rather than on a negative reaction to some flame on a forum!
 
I think sometimes there are users who feel that the freedom and relative annomynity of the forum allows for a greater level of vitriol than you would expect in the offline polite society.

When I first came to the forum (not so long ago) I came wanting to learn about Red and the technology being employed. I didnt come here to deride other companies and professionals that, lets be honest, strive for the same innovation the we applaude the staff of Red for.

This idea of 'You're either for Red , or against Red' has never been propogated either by Jim or the rest of the Red team, nor for that matter by 99% of the sensible people who can discuss the merits of arguments for and against technologies and techniques without it being detrimental to Red, or the community that embraces it.

For my money, the best way to combat the 1% is to drown them out with positive discussion and geniune debate from the 99%
 
Scott Crawley said:
I don't see how the ravings of a few individual zealots with no connection to the company can damage Red's image or reputation.
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It's not the first time, remember what happened when Claudio Miranda dropped by with his tests?
 
Stephen Williams said:
It's not the first time, remember what happened when Claudio Miranda dropped by with his tests?
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Sorry, I don't. Is he a member of the Red team? If he's not a repResentative of the co., then how could he effect their reputation? If the test results were faulty...
 
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Often there is this tendency to generalize everything.


Few examples of perception:

1. Inappropriate individual behavior attributed to the whole thread or this forum.

2. Openly talking about negative aspects = bashing.

3. Mentioning one element that might be negative is automatically perceived as being against the whole concept - "with or against" type of mentality.


If you put everything in boxes, soon you'll see only boxes. Even worse if there are only two.



This is funny. The same nitpicking attitude which drives the evolution (when used properly), the human desire to make things better, which lead to things like raw capturing 4k camera, now is generally being “inappropriate” because “good enough” bar is being thrown around like a bone.

All of a sudden “this is not good” is “bashing”. Strange.
I work with various cameras, codecs and sensor sizes, ranging from great looking to crap quality, neither being best for everything or worst in general, and I see no reason why I should be offended if anyone mentions negative aspects of any camera, or anything else. I if do and anyone gets offended - “Okay I’m sorry, here’s a popsicle”.

Some folks feel insulted if anyone says anything about the poor excuse for a video quality still camera is recording, like this statement is directed to them personally or to their art, while manufacturers are laughing. After that there’s a whole explosion of over-considerate comments like “right tool for the job” and “story is everything”.

On one side there is this craze of “4K everything”, “when can we go 5K, 9K, NK” and “any new camera which is not 4K is yesterday” attitude- which seems to be very popular, and on the other side any mentioning of poor aspects of 1080p deception is “elitism” and “bashing”.

Reduser = elitist ? This is hilarious.


With all this commotion and Mickey Mouse Club feuds, no one asks the question of how come there are multiple comparisons of DSLR’s and RED and none of DSLR’s and high rollers. How come the same industry players and digital revolutionaries, which are rally brave, didn’t jump to playing with Red when it came out, but are impressed with mud in h.264 ?


This negative stuff is blown out of proportion.
Mods do a good job and a few more warnings and bans is all it takes to get rid of the personal attacks, accusations and other things which are out of line.
 
Scott Crawley said:
Sorry, I don't. Is he a member of the Red team? If he's not a repResentative of the co., then how could he effect their reputation? If the test results were faulty...
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The tests were not faulty, Sanjin did not like the results & Claudio no longer posts here.
 
I am the only REDuser I know that actually hangs around here. Most just come on for advice when they need it. It inclination. I'm inclined they aren't and basically want to go home and chill rather than talk about what they have been doing for the last 12hrs. I like the community but i really just come here for updates. Once the Scarlet is out i'm sure the dynamic will change again.
 
Jason Ramsey said:
some posts don't survive public viewing... keep that in mind...
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Yeah... Well, kudos to mods.

I just checked the whole thread and well, I gotta say I don't agree with the original poster view but even with a rather aggressive initial statement all the user base took the discussion to a nicely constructive direction.

So I'm not sure I'd agree with a crazy idea of RED User Pro, RED User is already Pro.

Kudos to all the constructive collaborators on this community!

:biggrin5:
 
Stephen Williams said:
The tests were not faulty, Sanjin did not like the results & Claudio no longer posts here.
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I'm not guilty for that at all for that just because I do not owe this or any other forum, blog or similar...
 
Tim Hole said:
I am the only REDuser I know that actually hangs around here. Most just come on for advice when they need it. It inclination. I'm inclined they aren't and basically want to go home and chill rather than talk about what they have been doing for the last 12hrs. I like the community but i really just come here for updates. Once the Scarlet is out i'm sure the dynamic will change again.
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Same here, I am on this site more than facebook, probably because it is way more interesting.
 
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