Red still lags behind Arri in UK Drama production

[Simon Dunne]

http://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/techf...cktitle=Latest-Technology-News&contentID=1151

So, Broadcasts latest survey has shown that Red is still behind Arri when it comes to UK drama. I love looking at all this data and analyzing it, as it raises some interesting questions.

-The 2 Red shoots, used an Epic. No second camera was needed for these shoots though. Obviously a good winner in terms of saving £$£$. Arri shoots still need a big AND small body.
-The UK is still happy shooting 2K for a 1080P finish
-In terms of syndication, there seems to be no rush to shoot 4/5/6k for a UHD finish or for archive
-1 UK show still shoots on 16mm!

In the main article, one of the interviewed DoP's states his love for the mechanical shutter in the new Alexa. All good talking points. Just an FYI for those that are interested in the current state of UK Drama productions.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

They love their color, tonality and detail. You see little niose I noticed too, but they are broadcast SD here. That should change with dragon, but they are a.bit behind the times in switching stuff over (hence fullhd) but charge you like a wounded bull for a few episodes.

However, the Sherlock movmovie previews didn't look as good as TV series. I saw the previews and he looked gaunt and lanky with the camera looking up at him. I forget what the actual camera image was like.

 

[David Ellison]

I rent my camera here and there but demand for the epic dragon is way down.
Alexa Mini gets most jobs and Dragon only tends to go out to shoot VFX plates.
Problem in the UK is all the really old school guys tied up with those kind of
productions are scared of the Red, the prefer the old school mechanics of the
Arri gear.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I wonder how much that will change with Weapon and built in Prores?

Also - some markets are trending the OPPOSITE here in the U.S, where 4K mandates are pushing shows to shoot on RED/SONY/PANASONIC more than Arri, as Arri don't have a true 4K solution yet.

 

[Louis Maddalena]

I think for some of the TV shows, Nick is right. ProRes on the Weapon is going to help. But I don't think its going thelp in the UK where it seems people are too old school to try RED. If they like things like real mechanical shutters on the camera, then I don't think the advancement of the Weapon is going to lure them in.

But for TV stuff here in the us that use Arri because of quick turn around but then they also refinish afterwards I think Weapon might get a chance at those shows. Something like SNL where they shoot ProRes to get it to edit very quickly, but they still do some fine adjustments before putting it on the web.

 

[Wil Wong]

Perhaps the next crop of filmmakers in the UK that are learning and using Red will eventually invade the established sector of UK TV but unless there is a visionary "Break-Out" show that get's shot on RED over there (forcing others to rethink and look at doing more differently), I doubt much will change.

It seems like the industry has established itself. If and when 6k or 8k means something to them, I'm sure Arri will have offerings for them. Until then, whether it's because of rental houses, 'old school' dp that value the Arri brand, sales/service/customer service that is more attractive then North America, OR whatever cause all productions to choose the status quo, it's obvious that Arri is the preferred choice and camera standard.

How does Weapon break into such market? They need their Jessica Jones or House of Cards. BBC needs a Red shot show that blows them away the competition as to how good the show is (not saying that the camera and look is better technically, but fact that it's shot on RED would be enough to convince others that Weapon or Dragon is more then qualified to satisfy emotionally). Proven use/examples is the best way to establish a stronger market presence for future growth. The more people see it in action, the more they will want to replicate such success.

 

[Uros Zuraj]

There is still Red One and early Red Epics "crashing down" memory - mostly a memory these days, but its still there. Every time im on a set all the ACs and DITs are nagging about that and then when Arri Amira broke down they were all quiet and didnt know what to do as they were so shocked
And they are always complaining how you need 20extra stuff on Red that Alexa already has built in.... but now they are complaining the same about Alexa Mini
I think it has a lot to do with the guys on the field and not the guys who work the footage still.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

"Doc Martin" still is shooting in Super-16?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Perhaps the next crop of filmmakers in the UK that are learning and using Red will eventually invade the established sector of UK TV but unless there is a visionary "Break-Out" show that get's shot on RED over there (forcing others to rethink and look at doing more differently), I doubt much will change.

It seems like the industry has established itself. If and when 6k or 8k means something to them, I'm sure Arri will have offerings for them. Until then, whether it's because of rental houses, 'old school' dp that value the Arri brand, sales/service/customer service that is more attractive then North America, OR whatever cause all productions to choose the status quo, it's obvious that Arri is the preferred choice and camera standard.

How does Weapon break into such market? They need their Jessica Jones or House of Cards. BBC needs a Red shot show that blows them away the competition as to how good the show is (not saying that the camera and look is better technically, but fact that it's shot on RED would be enough to convince others that Weapon or Dragon is more then qualified to satisfy emotionally). Proven use/examples is the best way to establish a stronger market presence for future growth. The more people see it in action, the more they will want to replicate such success.

Red Dwarf, Return to Earth Epic MX maybe. Liked the previous Sony image better (I think it was Sony). Dragon would be better.

Have to agree, all this module this that the others, $6000 board replacements if something went eting, even ptobshly a blown capacitor, eek, that got rid of any desire to buy a Red One or Epic for me. Up till dragon it frankily has been 10% for me. If you want to know every reason holding back people read my objections, I don't praise or reject a pro camera on fashion. Notna fan boy. Red One was the step in the right direction. If it had Dragon like image we would still be using and wanting to buy today. All we needed was Red One versions, and Red Two fixed smaller. Whatever each sector needs (not just the cinematography sector) and other very cheap balance of options, should come included in.the camera or with it. In a dragon imaged camera with legendary reliability and ease of control and comprehensive control features, this is what people want to buy.

"Doc Martin" still is shooting in Super-16?

Your joking, amazing. Have to watch this closely now. What film stock do they use Dsvid?

 

[Simon Dunne]

"Doc Martin" still is shooting in Super-16?

Yes indeedy David. Doc Martin is a prime time show over here on ITV1. It gets around 8m viewers i'd say. You can read more about the 16mm shooting of the show here;

http://motion.kodak.com/us/en/motion/blog/blog_post?contentid=4294991834

As for those commenting about the coming ProRes on Weapon, i couldn't be more against this statement as a data guy. When running the maths, RedCode Raw gives you better performance in certain ratios compared with ProRes. I'm personally looking forward to DNxHD in an MXF wrapper. If you look at broadcast magazines other article on which platform post houses cut on, you'll find it's still mostly an Avid world. Why transcode time after time, when you can simply offline in DNxHD?? Using these natively recorded DNxHD files from the Weapon, you can offline almost instantly, and then online in R3D! Not to mention the simple process to get a dailies workflow to iPads or Surfaces/Web. It still baffles me how far behind the times some post houses are over here.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Misinformation and biased talk among active cinematographers and producers might be the reason. It's popular to hate Red, it's popular to love Arri. I see this behavior everywhere among productions. As soon as you mention you shoot something on Red it's like a surprise and the follow question is "why?"

I never hear any "why?" when people mention them filming on Arri Alexa. The trash talk against Red cameras hurt my business of being a Red owner so the question is definitely more than just about what people like or not. Whenever I hear misinformed trash talk about Red I debate, criticize, discuss and invite to show people why they are wrong.

 

[Björn Benckert]

It´s quite simple, the majority of them enjoy the a quick workflow and the simplicity of Arri, they deliver HD and they like a camera that pretty much only has one button... Not much to say about that, but UK drama is not even on my preference list so I could not care less. Or actually I like that people tend to shoot on Arri cameras as it differentiate me from the rest, I would be more worried if they all used RED cameras as that would make me less special

The other night we shot a TV promo thing. Milo went ape shit even before the first take (I think from the cold humid weather). So I basically I had to call in a techno crane in the middle of the night and do what was a moco shoot without moco... So We shoot with a lot of overscan and then we 3D project the plates back together in post... I was also producing the thing so I would have taken the total cost for a reshoot. Then In that situation I was quite happy to have a dragon delivering huge 6k files.... Basically that was the difference between a reshoot and parkwalk. Most producers do not understand, nor do most directors and the least so, does accountants. But for me personally, shooting dragon at night that night probably saved med about 30k USD even though I had to pay for the techno and all that. So simply put, having extra resolution is possibly not something people think they do not need, but usually thats because they have not ever had it or used it.

Then, ontop of it being a rescue machine, Dragon also looks so darn good in lowlight. Check this frame. One balloon light and then streetlights in the middle of the night with lowlight olpf. This is without ADD or DEB or post shaprening, as I like the texture it comes with. (people are unsharp as they rush towards camera and the techno is moving quite fast)

Download and look at it fullscreen: https://app.frame.io/f/CAnMaxxH

 

[Nick Morrison]

Yes indeedy David. Doc Martin is a prime time show over here on ITV1. It gets around 8m viewers i'd say. You can read more about the 16mm shooting of the show here;

http://motion.kodak.com/us/en/motion/blog/blog_post?contentid=4294991834

As for those commenting about the coming ProRes on Weapon, i couldn't be more against this statement as a data guy. When running the maths, RedCode Raw gives you better performance in certain ratios compared with ProRes. I'm personally looking forward to DNxHD in an MXF wrapper. If you look at broadcast magazines other article on which platform post houses cut on, you'll find it's still mostly an Avid world. Why transcode time after time, when you can simply offline in DNxHD?? Using these natively recorded DNxHD files from the Weapon, you can offline almost instantly, and then online in R3D! Not to mention the simple process to get a dailies workflow to iPads or Surfaces/Web. It still baffles me how far behind the times some post houses are over here.

DSMC2 should be getting DNXHD soon. Wont be MXF wrapper, but thats fine with me. I live in an Avid world, and love Avid QTs (they FLY into Avid), and are easy for clients to use/preview on their laptops/desktops (my clients screen old shoots all the time).

Can't wait to record DNX 115 and DNX 36 in camera!!

 

[Jay Birch]

Watch any of those shows and tell me they don't look great. You can look for various little reasons about bias, people being scared of technology etc etc... But the bottom line is and has been that the Alexa looks great.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

It´s quite simple, the majority of them enjoy the a quick workflow and the simplicity of Arri, they deliver HD and they like a camera that pretty much only has one button... Not much to say about that, but UK drama is not even on my preference list so I could not care less. Or actually I like that people tend to shoot on Arri cameras as it differentiate me from the rest, I would be more worried if they all used RED cameras as that would make me less special
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That's one way to see it, but if people had less misinformation about Red and all the wise-asses who don't know anything more than having a biased opinion about the cameras would shut up, then we don't have to over-convince people about using Red every time we're gonna shoot something. But now with Weapon and ProRes, they don't have anything real to counter with. I mean, if they want to skip using a RAW format in 6K and settle with HD ProRes, that's fine, now they can miss out on that even with a Red :glare:

Watch any of those shows and tell me they don't look great. You can look for various little reasons about bias, people being scared of technology etc etc... But the bottom line is and has been that the Alexa looks great.

The cameras today all bring enough quality so that if you have the skill and craft of a cinematographer you will be able to make great images, so it IS bias. I hear their "arguments" all the time and there's no real world basis for any of it. The choices aren't made because Arri has a "better camera", it's purely based on laziness and technophobia. I've never heard any rational arguments from anyone who only shoot on Arris. I'm not saying Arri makes bad cameras, but these people trash talk Red cameras into making others believe they won't work at all. This kind of misinformation hurt my business and I will fight that shit every time I encounter it.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

DSMC2 should be getting DNXHD soon. Wont be MXF wrapper, but thats fine with me. I live in an Avid world, and love Avid QTs (they FLY into Avid), and are easy for clients to use/preview on their laptops/desktops (my clients screen old shoots all the time).

Can't wait to record DNX 115 and DNX 36 in camera!!

is it definite it won't be MXF? ... Sorry I missed that. Thanks M

 

[Jay Birch]

The cameras today all bring enough quality so that if you have the skill and craft of a cinematographer you will be able to make great images, so it IS bias.

You might want to look up the word bias. Using a camera because it gives great results is not bias. It is just using a camera because it gives great results.

No doubt there are some people who diss RED... No doubt there are some people who diss Alexa... I imagine the DPs working on the shows mentioned in the OP just choose the best camera for the job, and they do a damn good job of making it look good.

 

[Simon Dunne]

is it definite it won't be MXF? ... Sorry I missed that. Thanks M

I really hope it is MXF and not MOV. The world needs to move on. Apple had their opportunity IMO. It's time for the wider community as a collective, who debate and push forward development on the MXF standard, to be rewarded by RED with an MXF wrapper. Otherwise, if they opt for MOV, we'll be held back years by the gamma shifting dictatorship wrapper, that sums up Apple in 3 letters.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Arri already does mxf recording and even though red raw is better most places can't work with it easily hence why they transcode on set. Yes weapon fixes this but Amira works for them today or mini so got a head start. Ps try explaining to post you need to shoot and finish in 6k or 4K to distribute on SD tv and watch them laugh out loud. Overkill much? Same way what I work on is sent out in 720 or 1080 its not relevant at all to them distribution wise and tv may realistically go the way of blockbuster before they go 4k

 

[Nick Morrison]

Watch any of those shows and tell me they don't look great. You can look for various little reasons about bias, people being scared of technology etc etc... But the bottom line is and has been that the Alexa looks great.

No one is denying that.