Red still lags behind Arri in UK Drama production

[Nick Morrison]

I really hope it is MXF and not MOV. The world needs to move on. Apple had their opportunity IMO. It's time for the wider community as a collective, who debate and push forward development on the MXF standard, to be rewarded by RED with an MXF wrapper. Otherwise, if they opt for MOV, we'll be held back years by the gamma shifting dictatorship wrapper, that sums up Apple in 3 letters.

I have to agree the gamma shifts in QT are incredibly frustrating. MXF is rock solid however.

If DSMC2 cameras could record MXF in-camera I'd be blown away. I'm trying to temper my expectations, and for now...assuming it's just DNXHD QT's.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Arri already does mxf recording and even though red raw is better most places can't work with it easily hence why they transcode on set. Yes weapon fixes this but Amira works for them today or mini so got a head start. Ps try explaining to post you need to shoot and finish in 6k or 4K to distribute on SD tv and watch them laugh out loud. Overkill much? Same way what I work on is sent out in 720 or 1080 its not relevant at all to them distribution wise and tv may realistically go the way of blockbuster before they go 4k

Yes - but productions are shifting to 4K fast. Look at Netlfix and Amazon. I have to imagine, for future proofing, there must be incredible pressure for all shows to start shooting in 4K. Even for broadcasters. Why spend $30 million shooting a show in 1080? If you can't stream it in 4K in 2017?

I just went shopping for large screen TV's, and was blown away by how affordable 4K sets are - $700!

4K is coming, and coming fast. So this should be giving Panasonic, Sony and RED a lot of business.

And may explain why Arri is working SO hard to get a 4K+ sensor to market in 2016.

 

[Milan Spasic]

Misinformation and biased talk among active cinematographers and producers might be the reason. It's popular to hate Red, it's popular to love Arri. I see this behavior everywhere among productions. As soon as you mention you shoot something on Red it's like a surprise and the follow question is "why?"

I never hear any "why?" when people mention them filming on Arri Alexa. The trash talk against Red cameras hurt my business of being a Red owner so the question is definitely more than just about what people like or not. Whenever I hear misinformed trash talk about Red I debate, criticize, discuss and invite to show people why they are wrong.

I've owned every incarnation of Red camera since 2009 and I'm in line for the W.
The notion that Dragon is the best tool for every job is preposterous.
I'm afraid to say that even Alexa Classic still performs better in low light, sees deeper into the shadows and with less noise.
To the clients, that's still more valuable than the resolution.
Red wiill have to figure out how to compete with Arri in this area because once Alexa gets a true 4k sensor, this gap will only increase.

Currently shooting a car related project, 90% shot under available street light.
We tested Dragon w/LLOLPF, C500 and Alexa with Leica Summilux-Cs.
At the exact same ISO settings, Alexa won hands down when it comes to shadow detail and noise.
The C500, while it lacked the DR to compete with the other two, was also cleaner.
These are not the best times for owner-operators, unfortunately.

 

[Troy Bakewell]

Did you use frame averaging?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I've owned every incarnation of Red camera since 2009 and I'm in line for the W.
The notion that Dragon is the best tool for every job is preposterous.
I'm afraid to say that even Alexa Classic still performs better in low light, sees deeper into the shadows and with less noise.
To the clients, that's still more valuable than the resolution.
Red wiill have to figure out how to compete with Arri in this area because once Alexa gets a true 4k sensor, this gap will only increase.

Currently shooting a car related project, 90% shot under available street light.
We tested Dragon w/LLOLPF, C500 and Alexa with Leica Summilux-Cs.
At the exact same ISO settings, Alexa won hands down when it comes to shadow detail and noise.
The C500, while it lacked the DR to compete with the other two, was also cleaner.
These are not the best times for owner-operators, unfortunately.

May I ask if you processed the R3D files into final graded images before comparing between the cameras? I'm not saying that Alexa is bad, but to say that Red is far behind is what's really preposterous. I mean, Arri do in camera debayering and processing while the SXT uses noise reduction. Comparing RAW to already processed material is not a correct comparison. How do the images look after processing? Do you still find the Dragon to be inferior?

 

[Nick Morrison]

The C500, while it lacked the DR to compete with the other two, was also cleaner.

I'm assuming this is because of built in NR.

I have to assume the image improvements in DSMC2 line will narrow gap btw RED and Arri, no?

Weapon appears to be clean at 4000 ISO, even at high compression (see Matt Ryan's and Nick Fury's tests).

 

[Michael Lindsay]

I really hope it is MXF and not MOV. The world needs to move on. Apple had their opportunity IMO. It's time for the wider community as a collective, who debate and push forward development on the MXF standard, to be rewarded by RED with an MXF wrapper. Otherwise, if they opt for MOV, we'll be held back years by the gamma shifting dictatorship wrapper, that sums up Apple in 3 letters.

I imagine it is the codec that is that hard bit to code not the wrapper... Fingers crossed!

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

What I don't like most is the lack of variety (but despite that, I don't believe that DSLRs should be in this mix for serious productions). Homogenization is not a good thing, depending on what you're talking about. Having industry standards is helpful, but not when it turns an industry into mush.

Even with film stocks, I want to see more variety. Today, it's pretty much Kodak by itself. Soon, Ferrania will make movie film. Who else?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Arri already does mxf recording and even though red raw is better most places can't work with it easily hence why they transcode on set. Yes weapon fixes this but Amira works for them today or mini so got a head start. Ps try explaining to post you need to shoot and finish in 6k or 4K to distribute on SD tv and watch them laugh out loud. Overkill much? Same way what I work on is sent out in 720 or 1080 its not relevant at all to them distribution wise and tv may realistically go the way of blockbuster before they go 4k

When we were pre red developing the lowcost cinema camera industy for indies people liked support for standards, but that was expensive. It was decided as a stop gap measure, that all we had to do was record and teanscode. But as there is now a wide digital cinema industry with its own workflows, and as the industry now stands, this no longer stands. What is mentioned here applies for a high sales company, even the in camera stuff. The shift should have been anticipated and met years ago, even if standard support co-developed with avid.

As for the opinion of the post houses, you can't let the dogs rule the kennel all the time, it will look as bad for business as it sounds. BBC productions do a lot of up marks priced disc sales. The thought of post houses influencing a restriction to SD footage on 65 inch plus fullhd+ screens is as bad as it sounds. If BBC wants to maintain such high high margins in a fullhd/4k world they need to finish in at least fullhd for web and disc, and preferably 4k for future sales, as people will be watching and buying those shows for decades. I remember when some BBC productions where $20 for two or three 20 minutes+ episodes. I am sure it is better today, but they do like premium pricing.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I think that merely the Arri best meets the BBC look since the Digital betacam days

 

[Marc Wielage]

I continue to believe that the choice of camera does not matter, and it's more about the artistry of the DP, the quality of the lenses, and the lighting (not necessarily in that order). As the demand for 4K increases, there will be a lot more choices out there. And I don't think the K alone is the biggest factor in image quality. I wish it were that simple.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Working with an organisation like the BBC that have their own style document, people probably just go with the flow of what others use that meets the spec well. It's probably that simple, and the Arri is probably there because they also are so workable.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

...and the Arri is probably there because they also are so workable.

Yes. Being a Red Owner since day one and now on Dragon, I can say that I never owned a camera system that had so man breakdowns and issues, not to mention the colour problems in the first 2 years (2008-2010). My RedOne's sensor died after 2 years very mild use (no rental), then the following Epic had issues with their MX sensor which got replaced and now I'm going to get the second Dragon sensor. This all cost me around 20k for camera renting in the last 7 years. Never had this issues with my S-16mm Arri SRII. It ran literally 25 years without any hiccup, I only changed the fuse once and had it in serviced once when we had a shoot in Finland at wintertime.

This said, the colours of the Dragon are nice, the latitudes is very good, the highlight roll-off as well. 5KHD produces a very good S-35 3-perf picture and resolves pretty high, perhaps a tad too soft due to the pretty aggressive OLPF. This may change when I will get the new standard OLPF in the course of the sensor swap.

The big advantage of Red's cameras are the form factor. That alone can be a reason to stay away from Alexa. The new Alexa Mini, however, changes that obviously.

Don't know my personal camera owner future but Munich is only a 5 hours car drive away.


Hans

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I wonder how much that will change with Weapon and built in Prores?

Also - some markets are trending the OPPOSITE here in the U.S, where 4K mandates are pushing shows to shoot on RED/SONY/PANASONIC more than Arri, as Arri don't have a true 4K solution yet.

Adoption based on Weapon Prores support depends on delivery resolution and level of post work required. Prores HQ available in 4K on Weapon is not as capable as two higher 12 bit Prores versions supported by Alexa. In Weapon's case it allows more practicality where raw workflow is a bottleneck and specific post work is not required. Arri route allows direct shooting to a very capable codec and bypassing the raw route. No one will shoot a high profile large budget project on Prores HQ if raw is available. It is not uncommon for Prores 4444 and Prores 4444 XQ to be a choice instead of Arriraw.

That all is a factor for UHD workflow of course, for 2K/1080p productions full Prores version support is a big bonus. Also, Weapon's other features and improvements bring more benefits to productions which currently gravitate towards Alexa.

Delivery pipelines dictating content acquisition formats in the context of imaging resolution is a trend void of reason and aesthetic bullying of content creators. Arri's uprezzing deals with technical fixation element and content consumers don't care about the actual quantified fidelity of content's visuals. The resolution distinction mattered more in SD/HD switch because of the vast and easily perceivable difference. 3K upscaled vs 4K is perceptually not a vast difference to an average content consumer.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Hans, I am sorry to hear that. I meant workflow, integration, control etc. I assumed that that stuff was worked out in short time, even before production. The color should have been worked out in 6 months, I mean it is standard work on mst every consumer camera. But teething problems. They are talking about better parts and design etc, so time for the reputation to pickup. If the 3D holographic stuff takes off and csn yeild at least fullhd resolutuin, I suspect top end productions might convert to that, and the rest of us go with Red like cameras in 2D or 3D.

That formfactor goes well when used with a small lens handheld at least, but it lacks enough integration, features, controls etc. But it is small, and they literally could make another formfactor case and fit the camera inside it as a camera head. I don't know why they don't do it.

Red has fallen into conformity. Even if more advanced, it is me too advanced. Sony is pushing the art forwards at least. Red promised many things thst did not pan out yet, such as software 3D, which I have known how to do through my own design work for nearly 20 years (I would have to dig the details out of my mind). It is often said that management is to blame for things not going right. I dont hold to that strictly, but management does hire the people responsible for certain things, and I wonder sometimes. With the existing people, as a consultant, I could maybe double performance through some basic strategies. However, I do not know the inner workings to know if there is relevant room for those strategies to work.

It is a mistake to think that the resources you need are inside or outside the company, in reality they are wherever they are. So it is a mistake to rely on peolle inside the company exclusively, it is about team often, and talent, both of which maybe completely seperate. So you search for somebody outside that can do the job who can be a member of the team, or talent and respect that talent, even if they work separately.

It's late, and I have forgotten what Red could do to change the situation and become individual direction again. Being objective about redray and opening it up to internet playback, standardisation and gpu card support (in exchange for sharing that custom design as part of the deal) and making money on encoding etc, and hardware support. If they leave this till h266 it will probably be getting too late, as it will then have to be ready to support h267. Things move forwards, so the time is now.

 

[Freya]

Perhaps the next crop of filmmakers in the UK that are learning and using Red will eventually invade the established sector of UK TV but unless there is a visionary "Break-Out" show that get's shot on RED over there (forcing others to rethink and look at doing more differently), I doubt much will change.

The UK doesn't really work like that. There won't be a "new crop of filmmakers" in the way you are thinking and the UK doesn't really do visionary "Break-Out" shows either. These are more film industry kind of ideas. The UK TV industry works very differently.

This is probably one of the reasons that there is so little interest in the UK TV industry for red cameras.

Freya

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Sorry to hear how unlucky you have been Hans! (I am actually amazed your are still shooting Red)

I do pretty easy studio and mostly UK based work so don't often put our cameras under a lot of pressure... But I have had less time down with our red cameras than I did shooting in the mixed world of 435/sr3/XTR/f900/f750/varicam etc etc... I have never lost anything or had a delay of longer than an hour.. BUT My partner in my camera/lenses/grip/lighting venture has dragged our Red cameras around the world from -50 to +50 and really put these cameras through it with no significant failures in 6 years.. Maybe we are just lucky?

Have to agree with you about the mini ... Very interesting camera. The combination of a Mini and an Arri 65 on the truck would get me very excited!

If only red could squeeze out a 4k at 200fps and ship me my 8k weapon;-)

Yes. Being a Red Owner since day one and now on Dragon, I can say that I never owned a camera system that had so man breakdowns and issues, not to mention the colour problems in the first 2 years (2008-2010). My RedOne's sensor died after 2 years very mild use (no rental), then the following Epic had issues with their MX sensor which got replaced and now I'm going to get the second Dragon sensor. This all cost me around 20k for camera renting in the last 7 years. Never had this issues with my S-16mm Arri SRII. It ran literally 25 years without any hiccup, I only changed the fuse once and had it in serviced once when we had a shoot in Finland at wintertime.

This said, the colours of the Dragon are nice, the latitudes is very good, the highlight roll-off as well. 5KHD produces a very good S-35 3-perf picture and resolves pretty high, perhaps a tad too soft due to the pretty aggressive OLPF. This may change when I will get the new standard OLPF in the course of the sensor swap.

The big advantage of Red's cameras are the form factor. That alone can be a reason to stay away from Alexa. The new Alexa Mini, however, changes that obviously.

Don't know my personal camera owner future but Munich is only a 5 hours car drive away.


Hans

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Freya. Doctor Who. The Goodies, Space 1999, The Young Ones, Black adder, a numbet of sherlock series, red dwarf, upstairs downstairs, time team, steptoe and son, Mr Bean,

The Kenny Everette Video Show. The two Ronnies, Korkome a d Wise (I dont know whuch was first) , open all hours, the last of the summer wine, doc martin, death in paradise, absolutely fabulouse, all creatures grwat wnd smalk, Foylse War, Coupling, outnumbered, one foot in the grave (really great) , not.the nine oclock news (maybe like sat live, but never seen sat liv), parkinson, keeping up appearences. Danger Mouse. Frost. George Gently, and so many I dont remember, better than most of the American shows of the time, amd unuque spins. Who even needs a best camera, these were great.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Yes. Being a Red Owner since day one and now on Dragon, I can say that I never owned a camera system that had so man breakdowns and issues, not to mention the colour problems in the first 2 years (2008-2010). My RedOne's sensor died after 2 years very mild use (no rental), then the following Epic had issues with their MX sensor which got replaced and now I'm going to get the second Dragon sensor. This all cost me around 20k for camera renting in the last 7 years. Never had this issues with my S-16mm Arri SRII. It ran literally 25 years without any hiccup, I only changed the fuse once and had it in serviced once when we had a shoot in Finland at wintertime.

This said, the colours of the Dragon are nice, the latitudes is very good, the highlight roll-off as well. 5KHD produces a very good S-35 3-perf picture and resolves pretty high, perhaps a tad too soft due to the pretty aggressive OLPF. This may change when I will get the new standard OLPF in the course of the sensor swap.

The big advantage of Red's cameras are the form factor. That alone can be a reason to stay away from Alexa. The new Alexa Mini, however, changes that obviously.

Don't know my personal camera owner future but Munich is only a 5 hours car drive away.


Hans

hehe you're lucky, I have lost a lot more money with Arri.
I could start with the D-21 .. never seen a camera like shit !! I lost much money, I still sick ...
The rest did not go better with Arri. Fortunately, the latest firmware is more stable.
I think everyone here can tell different stories.
Weapon, Raven, Scarlet-W will be a breath of fresh air for people who fear so much as the RAW workflow, the ProRes is the right thing to have, as well DnxHR right now.
I agree with MARC, nowadays the director of photography, lenses and history make the biggest difference, and of course a good colorist.
And when asked what is the camera that can extract more in post production, well for now it is RED, as a second Alexa.
Heee mini ?! but to make it work if it becomes nearly as long as a normal Alexa, which advantages wowo !! let alone mount on Ronin , only works on Movi .. 15 .. please ......
I can only admire the Nd interiors, what is lacking now in RED without losing light, but I trust in the next NAB.

 

[jake blackstone]

Comparing RAW to already processed material is not a correct comparison.

The comparison you describing is a physical impossibility. You can't compare raw with any images, as raw must be debayered before it can be used for anything.